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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:31 am 
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Bruce Doull
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There's no point arguing that we should have avoided the spoon when we're quite clearly the team that deserves it the most. We're the poorest team in the comp and we've earned the spoon on merit.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:32 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Synbad wrote:
...but we need o pick up the best AND develop it.


are you worried we can't develop it?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:33 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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JohnM wrote:
TrueBlueBrad, in short answer to your question (even if it was rhetorical):

"How long do you need to go on accumulating?"

In my opinion we need to hit the draft hard in both 2005 and 2006. Both National and Pre-Season drafts. If we do this properly (and have our player development sorted) then we should be able to rise properly - rather than just bumping ourselves up to 10th before falling again.

More pain next season, I'm afraid.


Of course thats what we're going to do, we don't have much choice.

I'm not questioning where we're at or what we need to do...only that it guarentee's success...which is not what you're saying.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:41 am 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:29 pm
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OK Brad, but it DOES guarantee us talent, which is an important part of the equation when it comes to creating success.

We need players with skill
These kids come through early in the draft

We need players with the talent upstairs to get the best out of themselves
These kids also come through early in the draft

We need to develop these kids into excellent AFL players
Nothing to do with the draft, this one's up to us. But it's easier when they're quality kids (attitude-wise) to begin with

We need to do around 10 more things. Recruit some good ready-mades, extract the most out of guys like Fev and Stevo and Barney, make sure Simmo, Waite et al continue to improve, build bodies, etc, etc.

So no, having early picks is no guarantee of success (there's no such thing) because success - as defined by flags - is made up of many things. But I don't believe you can win a flag without a very talented list, unless you get very, very lucky.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:47 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:11 pm
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Synbad wrote:
Pick up twp of the best three young kids in the whole country and an uncontracted player..
Next year we will still be crap and hopefully they keep the priority pick as it is means that we have 2 cracks at some of the best young talent EVER!!!!.
If its taken away we still will have one of the first three picks at some of the best talent thats ever likely to be in the draft..
Plus we shall still have a heap of room in the salary cap... means that the talent pool is on the up...

From here on in its only a matter of time before we have enough to be a real power... but we need o pick up the best AND develop it.


Synbad i agree "WE ARE A SHIT TEAM " it is obvious and undisputable. What i'm curious about is why do you believe that we will more than likely be as Shit again next season? I mean we will get 2 of the best three young available talents, plus the likihood of a Good Player in the PSD, add to this the development of some of the younger players, along with some well deserved delistings, surely we should be better than 5 and half wins next season. :?

I personally would be disappointed if all of the above happened. Do we not have that any scope for improvement that at the very least we will be capable of winning more than 5 and half games next season ?

I understand your logic in wanting us to finish last again next season as a platform to build on, but do you think that this is what the Coaching Staff and MC will be looking and hoping for next season also ? I don't.

This year we have been, and are a Nightmare, surely what we as members and supporters would be wanting next season is not groundhog day but some improvement. Some light , something.

But your perspective is valid and probably shared by many. Myself i will hold out until next season and only then if the reality is we are again shit, then, i too will board the let's finish last one more time theory.

For now i live with Hope that 2006 will be the begining of our revival not 2007. :D :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:49 am 
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Harry Vallence

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JohnM wrote:
But I don't believe you can win a flag without a very talented list, unless you get very, very lucky.


Only Collingwood was capable of doing that.. And i still can not believe it. :shock: :shock: :x :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:50 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Gotta remember Tractor that every club is also improving - its a gradual thing, youngsters coming through to replace older players. While we would improve, and our youngsters improve, every one else can say that. Everyone else gets draft picks and we just hope our #1 is marginallybetter than the #2.... it will take a long time. At least think that way and any shorter term fix will surprise you.

Look at the Hawks - they'll be great in 2007.

Look at the Dogs - just a couple of key position players short now of really pushing it.

We're miles behind other clubs because of the loss of picks (and giving away picks) and poor contract structure that has stopped us buying some big players. We are in trouble.

Hope for the best but expect to rebuild.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:57 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Tractor Boy.. were miles off the pace.
We lack leadership and next year more experience will go .
We lack so much that was a given in years gone by.
Were really at the bottom.
There is no way this team will have reinvented itself in one year to be anything but struggling.
If you look at clubs with teams as bad as ours historically you would see we have another year at the bottom and possibly two before were on the rise.
It all depends on what we draft, bring in and how we develop it.
I think Denis has lost the senior group and that has rubbed off on the kids.
Im hoping for senior players to get the big heave ho and the kids to concentrate on the footy again.
Denis is a hard task master... but in the end if they do what they have to do they will benefit from Denis being at the helm.

My guess is that Denis is smart enough to reinvent himself and some of the coachind department will disolve away and an emphasis will be on development in those that come in to help out.

We have a bunch of kids staring into the future.
Daunting it may be but wait till they all come through together...

If the development is put in.

And there is a want to be developed

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:06 am 
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Harry Vallence

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molsey wrote:
Gotta remember Tractor that every club is also improving - its a gradual thing, youngsters coming through to replace older players. While we would improve, and our youngsters improve, every one else can say that. Everyone else gets draft picks and we just hope our #1 is marginallybetter than the #2.... it will take a long time. At least think that way and any shorter term fix will surprise you.

Look at the Hawks - they'll be great in 2007.

Look at the Dogs - just a couple of key position players short now of really pushing it.

We're miles behind other clubs because of the loss of picks (and giving away picks) and poor contract structure that has stopped us buying some big players. We are in trouble.

Hope for the best but expect to rebuild.


But then look at Richmond,the level of improvement for them this year has been far greater than anyones expectations. We might be miles behind today, but some of that might also be due the club holding back a few, the club being very careful in protecting our young lads. We've exposed our weeknessness to the memebers and supporters letting them see some of the downhill skiers we currently have, making it obvious and making it justifiable when they are walked out the door.

I take on board what you are saying but our perspective on a long way behind is not the same. Just as clubs improve others drop off.

I'm more a half glass full than a half glass empty with this entire scenario. And in the end if i'm wrong, oh well.....

If the club is serious, the hard decisions will be made this year and the improvemnt will be obvious next season. I hope Collo and Pagan are not just Huff and Puff but actions will speak for themselves.

I just Hope at the moment. Hope that all we've got.. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:27 pm
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And attracting Leadership type players will be importnat for the future development Which is prob why we are making big noise for Kosi / Power / Bartel and there prob a few others...

ANd yes if DP has lost the seniors (Mixture of salary disputes and them wanting to do there own thing) and they have been having a negative effect on some of our kids then they have to go.... with the $$$$ we save from those Players going we will hopefully land some key players who will come in and they will be needed to help get the kids up as well to provide on field leadeship which we sadly lack at this point in time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Richmond have had their honeymoon period.
My guess is its all a mirage for them.
They also have senior players better than ours.


But they needed to stay down another year like Hawthorn...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:14 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:11 pm
Posts: 1959
Location: Elwood
Synbad wrote:
Tractor Boy.. were miles off the pace.
We lack leadership and next year more experience will go .
We lack so much that was a given in years gone by.
Were really at the bottom.
There is no way this team will have reinvented itself in one year to be anything but struggling.
If you look at clubs with teams as bad as ours historically you would see we have another year at the bottom and possibly two before were on the rise.
It all depends on what we draft, bring in and how we develop it.
I think Denis has lost the senior group and that has rubbed off on the kids.
Im hoping for senior players to get the big heave ho and the kids to concentrate on the footy again.
Denis is a hard task master... but in the end if they do what they have to do they will benefit from Denis being at the helm.

My guess is that Denis is smart enough to reinvent himself and some of the coachind department will disolve away and an emphasis will be on development in those that come in to help out.

We have a bunch of kids staring into the future.
Daunting it may be but wait till they all come through together...

If the development is put in.

And there is a want to be developed


Ultimately i too, think you are right, but am being a little more positive. I think that with the tough decisions being made, we have a club culture that can turn it around quicker. As i said earlier to Molsey i just Hope ! :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:17 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Understood tractor... i just won't let hope in for a week or so.... my official mourning period is still running!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:24 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:28 pm
Posts: 2220
Lets just say that we get lucky and fluke a 2006 comeback of sorts.

With a single year of player development after ground zero and against the more experienced heads in the better sides, how long would it be until our new game is found out and ends up crashing? Id say not very long at all.

Also, even if we get a swag of great picks and trades in 2005, where will our side be when compared to those quality premiership winning Carlton sides of the past?

We probably wouldnt be anywhere near what we once were.

To get closer to that kind of side is the objective here, not just to be a flash in the pan side that has a good year finishes in the eight but bombs our of the finals and is filled with misplaced hope for the next season.

Surely what we are wanting is slow and steady development, with more good picks in 2006 from what will be a very good draft.

I think they will ultimately be underachievers, but if the players the Saints have now were in navy blue, we would be challenging for a flag a lot stronger than they are.

Im not holding them up as some kind of example for us here, just looking at their overall quality on paper and realising that this is the kind of quality that we need in our new side if we are to go places.

So, to get there, Ive resigned myself to a bad year in 2006 for the sake of the longer term.

This isnt easy though. Hard to stomach another shit year, but I feel that it is necessary for us to have it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:58 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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I'd be happy with a bottom two finish if the kids were playing and there was a future sort of just glinting a bit like those mirrors on the hilltops in old Westerans warning of imminenet indian attacks - be nice if that was there next year. That would be an improvement.

This year no mirrors plenty of smoke no signals. :cry:

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