Alright I dont get it . Tell me this then name me the players who have improved under Pagan- Name me the players that are playing above expectations _ What has DP brought to the club . Which of these duds he was left with are less dudier today

On another note I have never said the Britain was a better coach - couldn't do any worse though - I felt he was unfairly treated and came at a lower cost.

As for Jack he was about to retire anyway I just feel he should have been given the chance to defend the accusations that were levelled at him, he was hung drawn and quartered with out a fair trial

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

And who do you suppose was the cause of that?



Never mind the fact that 2002 was our 3rd salary cap drama and that we were already under a suspended sentence from the previous effort. He'd already had enough chances over the years.

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I´ve got less posts than a St Kilda troll.

I thought one of the reasons "duds" were called duds is because they tend to not improve through their careers. And please note that I don't like calling any players duds, it is not a term I use myself to describe any players on an AFL list.

This is the whole point that people are trying to get across. Pagan could not trade for class players when he had so little talent on the list and no draft picks. This is especially important given the fact that the leaders appear mostly unable to lead. Starkly illustrated this year when it was Simpson, Carrazzo, Waite and AB who provided the leadership impetus in our late season wins.

Sydneyblue, I think your posts in general have been interesting and you raise some points worth considering.

Your post a few weeks back about your kids being embarrassed to call themselves Carlton supporters was one i remember.

GWS - you may have more knowledge about trades etc than Sydneyblue but that is no reason to belittle him.

We are all Carlton supporters and he is just expressing his frustration with a question about the coaching situation. Take it easy... and let Sydneyblue make his point.

Problem is he's made his point and I still think it's a particularly stupid one.

I try to be civil at all times in here (except to soulfly and he started it ) but when a poster enters a discussion with something like this:



...then I reckon he may have asked for a bit of a personal response.

You really don't get it Sydney blue!

What did Elliott do that was so wrong?

I will tell you(without bringing in salary cap issues)....He was the President that left us with the worst legacy imaginable.

No depth and no future...

Need i remind you again!!!!!

Slip across to to the thread re our 2002 list!

That is what Elliott left!

Maybe it is just me however.....

Thankyou Tap for recognising that supporters can have different views as to why the club is in it's current situation . But as for these posters belittling me be assured that insults have absolutely no effect on me i have been belittled by the best of them an it is water off a ducks back to me .
As the supporters have reminded poster here day in and day out of the situation that was left Pagan - they should be also reminded that Pagan has not helped himself and made mistakes along the way also . Most posters tend to turn a blind eye to that. when the man himself has said on numerous occassion that football is 90% above the shoulders he is telling the public that most players at this level have the same ability and its getting their head round on how to use that ability . Pagan has failed to extract that out of the players and it reflects in the results over the last three years . Supporter in general tend to think that drafting young kids with ability is the only way forward . But it is the failure to enhance that ability where most fall down . Glen Mcgrath had not bowled a cricket ball at the age of 15 I am certain if a draft existing in cricket he would have been overlooked at 18 . Mcgrath is now arguable the greatest bowler ever to play the game. Guys who were probalby well ahead of him at 18 have by now disappeared into the never never. Football is no different . The draft and loss of draft penalties has had an effect on the club with its list - but it has had a greater effect on the minds of the players and administrators and now it is tossed up as the sole reason we are where we are at. Pagan Quote - Give me Brown and Reiwolt and I will give you wins. That quote as true as it might be did nothing other than offer Pagan an excuse for his sides performance . Why say when it is the bleeding obvious .

Anyway I am starting to rant I will leave it at that

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Getting back to the original point..I dont think Pagan wanted a belting and wanted to win but like me has given it away and probably wants the PP after the effort he witnessed..I think Fev being rested shows that he isnt so keen to win this week and is taking a realistic approach....

re: Elliott.....cant see how anyone can make a case to defend Elliott..either in his role as President or Company director...only sensible thing he did was employ Pagan.

re: Pagan...the Brown and Reiwoldt quote...seems fair enough give him talent and we will have some wins...people forget how backward we were before Pagan came...no weights program and senior players running their own agenda's courtesy of the Parkin legacy of senior players being empowered to do their own thing....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Sounds pretty spot on i think....I think he wants the first pick in both the drafts aswell for his troubles.




Exactly what we should judge him by...And he has done very well with the little talent that we do have....

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Circumstance has no value. It is how one relates to a situation that has value. All true meaning resides in the personal relationship to a phenomenon, what it means to you.

Please don't say that!

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

I don't think enough people give Parkin the respect he deserves. He was an awesome coach and his methods of coaching and recruiting worked for a hell of a long time... not to mention Carlton's coach of the century, give the man some credit... he got us 3 premierhips and I think a lot of the poor decisions that were made in Parko's later years were beyond his control.

It's a joke to think how peoples opinions of a coach can change so dramatically after a few years.

Elliott (and cronies) were responsible for Carlton's demise. Wayne Brittain made a huge mistake with drafting and recruiting, we had picks 4, 11, 15 and picked up Livo, Sporn and Wiggins.

Parko always has my respect and appreciation. He brought us years of success. It all had to end sometime. He got a lot out of topping up the list. Brittain was terribly stupid with his decisions at that critical draft of 2001.

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

Yes but No1 Parkin went on the record saying we should have traded our priority pick for Nathan Brown.

He deserves our respect but he must wear some criticism for the choices made while he was at the helm.

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

Parkin deserves some respect..thats fair enough but he became lost in the modern era and his methods were not suitable with salary caps, the draft, list management and the nurturing of U 18 talent....you cant buy your way out of trouble anymore and in recent years he seems to be suffering football dementia with some of his statements.

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

As I see it (freom listening to a few of his conversations) Parkin's main problem is an ethical one. It seems he vehmenently(?) disagrees with the draft pushing 18 year olds into the game before they are ready. I think he'd prefer it to be a later age. Problem is we have to act within the current system (cue Synbad rant just to remind us).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Parkin operated in the Salary Cap/Draft (the cap started around the mid 1980 i think) Era for around 10 years didnt he? (I dont know much about Carlton history)

He cant be all bad cause we won a premiership and played in a lsoing grand final in that era. We were also consitently competative through the 90s as well.

Please no-one chew me out for asking a question. I constantly have that happend on this site.

Parkin was good in the Pre 2000 error prob before the PP system and drafting came in place no question but i suspect the era when Rebuilding and using the draft is where we failed horribly also didnt help with Elliot probably not assisting in matters either

The problem is that premiership was won with the old recruiting methods and the leftovers of the old recruiting methods. The way we picked up Diesel is unlikely to happen today and Kernahan, Bradley, Silvagni etc were all at the club prior to the draft.

I'm a Parkin fan. I think he's one of the few "nice guys" in football but I agree that time passed him by. He simply didn't adapt to the new environment and that's probably fair enough. It doesn't mean he deserves some of the crap dished up to him in here.

The Nathan Brown call was a shocker and is emblematic of the fact that he still doesn't understand what rebuilding is all about but that's not surprising for a guy who spent most of his coaching career with a President screaming out behind him "We don't rebuild!"

It is unbelievable that people can accept Pagan and his methods who has done nothing for this club and criticise Parkin who brought us three flags and tried as hard as he could to develop character and life skills into players so that when it came time for them to leave they would have something to look forward to. Parkin was man enough to recognise that the game was passing him by, put in place a succession process and moved aside at an age that is very close to what Pagan is at the moment. I wonder if Denis has started this process . Maybe I dont know. But when posters can come on to this site and criticise Parkin and what he did for the Carlton football club they loose all credibility in my mind

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Neither Pagan nor Parkin are untouchables Sydney Blue.

Parkin was a great coach over a long period but his succession plan was fatally flawed as it didn't recognise the realities of the new system. He left a side with almost no talented youth to replace the aging superstars. He also left a team of players who felt they ran the club rather than the coach. That had to change and we're still dealing with it.

The reason I defend Pagan at the moment is because of the fact that I don't think he's had a fair chance when taking into consideration what he inherited. When he's had 3-4 years of full picks available we'll know much more about what his legacy is likely to be at Carlton. Until then we're still dealing with the legacy of the previous administration. If, after that time, there's no obvious improvement and development going on (unlikely considering I think there already is even though his hands have been tied) then I'll happily call for his head.

The side's a mess at the moment because we're still straddling two eras and they're pulling against each other. Thankfully by the end of next year we should see the end of the remnants of the previous era and we'll be able to get a better handle on what Pagan will be able to do.

GWS that poll they have on the AFL website tends to suggest that most supporters think Sheedy has a better chance of bringing the bombers up than Pagan has with Carlton . Whats your thoughts on that???

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws