That's just blatantly untrue and unfair.
Jarrad Waite was being developed in his first year and has admitted that he was not deserving of a senior game.
He was still contracted for 2003 and was always going to be retained.

Have a look who missed games in 2002 and how many.

Koutoufides 19
Allan 18
Ratten 10
Whitnall 11
Christou 10
Manton 13
Prendergast 11
Hickmott 5
Hotton 8
McKay 3
Bradley 2
Campo 2
Lappin 1

In this time players like Thornton, Livingston, Sporn, Wiggins, Fevola, Houlihan, Campbell, Beasy etc were getting game time giving them the opportunity to develop.

As the list shows we were decimated by injuries.
To suggest Brittain took us to a spoon without outlining the circumstances and contributing factors is misleading at best.

BTW, for every Sam Cranage there is a David Clarke.
Lets not try to rewrite history here.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

You can add Hulme to that list.

Anyone who proposes getting rid of the coach ie SB with Pagan should have some alternatives....David Parkin?????....aside I have not read one name...would Eade, Wallace, Harvey, Odonnell done any better?

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I'm not rewriting history here BV, I'm relaying an interview I heard live after one of the games in 2003 - McKay made those comments about Waite.

And in relation to the rest of your post, I'm very well aware of the circumstances of 2002, you don't need to go over them for me. I think you'll find you've attributed other people's comments about the spoon to me. My point to SB is you cannot compare both coaches win/loss records against each other (which he has done) without taking into consideration extraordinary factors. He would like us to judge Pagan whilst ignoring the draft picks. I'm arguing that you can't do that.

Just as much as you argue we need to factor in injuries for Brittain, I say we need to factor in those draft picks to Pagan. Go back and have a read of my posts in this thread, you'll find essentially we've argued the same point in principle. What opinions each of draws after taking those considerations into factor, may however, be slightly different.

They couldn't have done any worse .

I've told you on many occassions who could have done better and Brittain was one. The names you mentioned are others.

I hope for that I am wrong - god do I hope I am wrong - I hope in 12 months time you all be saying to me See Sydney you are a flower - Pagans turned things around. But I'm afraid come round 16-17 next year we will be praying that we dont win that 5 th game and all deciding who we should pick with pick 1-17-18 etc in the draft and what big name was going to fall through into our lap in the PSD. Synbad will be calling for Lance and Kouta's head -negotiations for kouta's contract will have stalled and Essendon* and Collingwood will be preparing to grab him in the PSD. Fevola will be leaning on the fence -Murphy had played 2 games and had 15 minutes on the ground as a tagger- Raso -Hartlett- Blackwell- and Russell will still be playing at Preston. Deluca will be dropping marks -Houlihan will be shirking contest- Lappin will be sulking and French and Mclaren have only played 12 games each due to injury and all you lot will be sitting here telling me that Pagan is doing a great job and noone yes thats right no one could be doing a better job

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

no the issue isn't in the future SB its the past, the last few years we are discussing.

as for the next three years well that's to be seen isn't it. Can DP turn this side around now that we have kids and such coming through or is he finished? I have no problem with that question because we can see over the next three seasons what's happening/not happening and make decisions based on that.

My point is you cannot make the claim someone else would have done better when this club, this coach and this list stands alone in being denied first two rounds access (except for Tex) for 2 years on a list that was old and claimed by everyone as already crap. That's the argument.

What could anyone have done then. And what coulod anyone have done in yiour 24hrs time frame?

Now is now, now we are on a level playing field (though starting far back) now I expect to see development and an idea (which I actually think the Whizz cup last year showed us) of what Denis plans to do with this side.

If he fails, fine he is too old get a new coach but that still will not change my mind about the past 3 years. Those penalties, to that list meant we were doomed, and after all wasn't that the point of those penalties. Add the finacial situation, the facilities etc and no wonder we were crap.

But now, now i expect to see improvement.

My argument would be judge him now and into the future, not in the past when no one can ever relaly understand how bad/or irrelevant those penalties were.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Sydney Blue.. ya know???

They can make a horror movie out of the senior players sitiuation from the last few years....

'Attack of the Softcocks'

The current Campo situation is the sequel. 'Revenge Of The Softcocks'

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

A certain prophet spent 40 years in the wilderness toughening up his people before they were allowed to enter the "Promised Land". Then he was only allowed a glimpse of it from a far mountain top.

Denis Pagan is probably the only coach available who had enough intestinal fortitude to be able to take the group through the dark period post 2003 and too see what was needed to move the group forward.

If its Denis Pagan or Joshua who takes us to our next flag I probably dont give a stuff - but anyone who sheets the blame only at Denis Pagan about our performance over the past 3 seasons is in "NoddyLand".

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Now, you dont really believe this do you Agro?
Exactly what intestinal fortitude has DEnis displayed that any other coaches havent?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

He sticks to his guns.....
(He stuck with Lance didnt he?)

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

History will judge wheter or not Dennis was a good coach for the club. ATM it is still to early to tell as there have been some mitigating factors re the teams poor performance. But now Dennis has assembled the type of players he wants in the team so I would expect to see an improvement in overall team attitude and performance over the remainder of his contract.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

That part probably will be happening, your list is not going to be fixed in 12 mos by Walker, a couple of mid-range picks from 2004, 4 prize 17-18 yolds and Saddington. If you genuinely expect to be out of the bottom 4 in 2006 and are going to measure Pagan's progress by that then you're very optimistic. You want early picks again next year.

In the long run you (and Hawthorn) are better placed than Richmond and the Dogs who have no KPP future but will rise up the ladder on the strength of their solid midfields and will therefore not have access to prime early picks. Their structural faults will prevent them winning flags.

Your KPP stocks look promising and good mids are easier to find, but you need a couple more years of early picks through low finishes or tough trading.

Sydney,
In ladder terms what is a position to finish in 06 that you would consider reasonable?

12th? 13th?

What's your parameter for judging Pagan next year?

Put your moneydown buddy and we'll see how it goes.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

If Denis gets us to the finals, SB will still call for Pagan's head.

If Denis gets us to a Prelim, SB will demand a refund of all his tickets to any matches he went to, plus his membership.

If Denis Gets us to a GF, SB will ask for Denis to be pubicly shamed and humiliated for being such an old, past it coach.

And if we get a Flag in 06, SB will demand Denis' contract be examined at the end of the year, as he doesn't want a loser coaching his club.

In short, nothing Denis could do could ever satisfy SB. He's got an axe to grind, and he won't stop til he's down to the handle.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Agreed, next years trade week is absolutely critical. The club really need to be realistic and MAKE SOME DEALS to gain some extra early draft picks. They need to be courageous and if need be take some calculated risks.

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There's so much I could say...

I thought Pike left North because of one of his indiscretions, good euphemism that one. I think he left Melbourne after a booze-up, he was a very good player back then and what, carved us up in that 1994 final? And then he stuffed up again under Pagan, and moved on. Didnt think that was because he was soft.

Of the players listed in the opening post I didnt think any were particularly soft as players other than Campo, but his role in the team doesnt / didnt require him to be in & under. I reckon he tried the role in 2004 but went backwards in 2005 for whatever reason. Maybe Sheedy had had many lunch meetings with him?

Ive only been to a handful of training sessions in my life but never thought that he was a slack trainer

_________________
Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

I'd love to see us make the 8 but more so I want to see us be competitive and not get pumped by 10+ goals every second week. I want to see the young blokes given time on the ground and I want to see Denis use the bench . I want to see the players think before they kick and want to see them wait until the best option appears. I dont want to see our AA half back flanker sitting in the forward pocket. I dont want to see our pick 9 in the 2004 draft playing in the back pocket for the bullants, I dont want to see our pick 2 being a tagger and I dont want to see our oldest player being left on the paddock for every minute of every game to be exposed by side rotating players through him and then him being accused as being unaccountable when buggered whould be more appropiate. I dont want to see Houlihan pretending he is a defender when he is probably one of the best attacking forwards going round. I dont want to see Fevola one out in the forward line because he is not capable of this role. I want to see the opposition loose man in defence manned up so they dont just drift accross and cut off all our leads.

you know its just the simple basic things I want see nothing to dramatic

And KK you are wrong if Pagan turns this side around I will admit that Iwas wrong and even go as far as personally apologising to him . If we win the flag I bow down and kiss his arse and vow never to discuss football again . Synbads the one grinding the axe - I just want to see us start winning

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Ok, those are fair things you're looking for next season. Reasonable, even

It's just that 9 posts out of 10 of yours are bagging Pagan, and generally hanging shit on him and attributing problems to him which weren't of his making, and seemingly clearing others of problems which were of their making...

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

If we allow the loose man to dominate our forward 50 next season I'll be very angry......it is very hard to win games with an extra man from the opposition in your forward line

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

And it's very hard to stop also, if the other side is really committed to doing it. In fact the only way you can only really stop it, is if you're willing to man up and have 20 players in your forward line. Or alternatively move the ball so quickly and precisely that the extra defender is ineffective. Or alternatively play a loose man down back yourself, and do it more effectively than the opposition.

You can only really do the first if you have key position forwards who can take a contested mark.

You can only really do the second if you have pace and skill.

You can only really do the third if you have genuinely classy rebounding defenders.

We haven't really had the playing stocks to manage effectively with any of the above strategies. I think our current recruiting strategy is attempting to give us a long-term chance to compete using all of the above strategies.