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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2025 12:58 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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carntheblues wrote:
Hornet wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Austin biggest mistake is he got the balance of the list wrong. To many players 21 and under and not enough players in the 22 to 25 year age bracket.

Does Austin have full autonomy on list changes?
Can he trade out and replace whoever he wants unopposed... there's no one advising him on types and team balance needs etc?
I seriously doubt that.

Lets face it... from recruitment, to development, to coaching... we are a complete @#$%&! up as a football department.



:eek:
I have watched a few VFL games this year and the team seems to have improved compared to previous years. Maybe there's hope yet!



Luke Power says hello.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2025 6:31 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6476
Thomas Medhat from East Perth is worth a look at in this years draft
Handy midsized forward


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2025 10:54 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Redhead?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 12:04 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25688
Location: Bondi Beach
keogh wrote:
Thomas Medhat from East Perth is worth a look at in this years draft
Handy midsized forward


https://www.afl.com.au/video/1104935/wafl-showreel-r2-thomas-medhat-highlights?videoId=1104935&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1712539227001

I don't know of him. Can't remember him in the Draft or as an NGA for Freo.

Point is there's plenty of rough diamonds out there.

I have always been supportive of looking for gems in lower leagues, after we landed Duigan with Pick 70, from Norwood, who after a great preseason became a regular in our backline, and eventually, won as a Final vs Richmond off his own boot as a Forward. Great move by Malthouse, in the only year I think luck went our way, when we replaced Effendopes in 8th position.

Duigan wasn't quick, but he had a tough body and I liked his physical approach to the game. Most important, he could compete against the bigger bodies, which our green shoots vs Lions last weekend, couldn't.

IMO, a mature player from lower leagues is as cheap as a kid we pick we pick up purely on potential at the Draft, but we have the advantage of seeing the body a player has grown into, let alone ready to rumble against the Big boys..

IMO its a must, but also would be easy to collate a list of 40 players with potential to add value to our best 23. Note, Best 23, not just depth.

From that list we could use our 6 late, "useless" picks we have failed to nail players with since 2002. SOS had no idea how to pick talent unless he had first round picks for tall players. Austin, who has had heaps of success with later picks whilst at Bulldogs, Port and Richmond, has failed to land a player with late picks, let alone one small forward after 5 goes.

We must make huge list changes this year, not next year. Next year, we have a first round pick, we don't have to use on Walker, given we can stack later picks to make up the points,whic will limit our draft picks next year, let alone the fact Tassie Devils will start cherry picking Under 17's, and some other deals made before the 2027 Draft when its totally compromised when Tasmania would be handed picks No. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 in their first draft, other teams select their Academy and NGA's, making a total mockery to provide support from the draft for bottom 4 teams.

Our TDK first round compo pick in 2025, maybe pick 6, which will become pick 10-12 should be traded for a running HB, and our future first (2026) used to trade for a quality midfielder.

Leave our spine alone, and find a No 1 ruck better than Pittonet...ie who can mark around the ground.

We will Draft Dean, and hopefully Ison as an NGA.

Outside of the abovementioned selections, we need to find 5-6 ready made mature players to push regular candidates like Gov, Acres, Pittonet, Young, Boyd, Cincotta, Durdin as break glass depth, which will also provide big bodies to expedite the development of the kids in the VFL.

We should not be playing kids in the VFL team inless they are freaks who can excel at the level. I have always held the position that kids should not be developed in the seniors, and 50 senior games, should be part of the player development after 3 years playing VFL whilst their bodies are strong enough. Geelong never play kids before 3 years of development, and even then, they still hold them back till thay are really ready to compete properly in the AFL.

I don't think any of Motlop, White, Binns, Wilson, HOF, Moir, Campo, Campo, Carroll, Lemmey, O'Keefe and Cowan should be playing senior football as early as they have. They have been picked because of injury, and a lack of depth in our list, let alone unreasonable expectation. A taste of senior footy, with senior players around to protect and help, is one thing just before the season ends, like we did for TDK and McKay, or OKeefe this year when we didnt had a shortage of talls because of our lack of depth, but picking kids and expect success in senior footy week in week out is fraught with danger imo. Its a trap.

We shouldn't be expecting our kids to play senior footy, let alone judging our kids till they have developed their bodies and gained experience playing against bigger bodies, over a minimum 3 preseasons imo. It just doesn't work, and something we have got use to doing since we landed our first Pick 1 in Marc Murphy, in 2006, and haven't stopped the ridiculous practise since. We have kids in the VFL who still struggle against big bodies in the VFL, and we still pick them to play AFL.

When I hear fans screaming at the MC to play the kids, I actually feel sick for the kids on our list because.....I've explained above, but moreso because.....

History keeps repeating at Carlton.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 1:05 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25688
Location: Bondi Beach
I would offer the following to the players coming out of contract come years end:

150K Cincotta
200K Gov
300K Haynes
650K Silvagni
250K Kemp
120K Lemmey.

DRAFT PLAYER? 1 year deal for one of Wilson / Charleson or rerookie
DRAFT PLAYER I'm not convinced either way in Fynn Young. Haven't seen speed by foot, his strength, let alone speed of mind yet, and good foot passing.
DRAFT PLAYER Trade Motlop for a pick if we are lucky
DRAFT PLAYER Trade Elijah for a pick if we are lucky
DRAFT PLAYER Delist Doc and make him VFL captain.
TRADE PLAYER Delist Fantasia
TRADE PLAYER Take the compo pick and invest the $1M into a $700K bonafide star, and the other $300 towards the salary of a big bodies ruckman
TRADE PLAYER. Delist Binns
TRADE PLAYER Delist Fogarty

DRAFT PLAYER Delist Monohan for Ison as NGA despite David King saying Monohan will be a star. Not sure if he was serious.
DRAFT PLAYER Delist Duffy if Gresham is a better prospect than Duffy

We have no NGA players considered in 2026, and an NGA in 2027 will be Abdullah. He may take Gresham or Duffy's spot of they don't work out.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 3:44 pm 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:17 pm
Posts: 399
190cm quick hbf ,190cm quick mid and no more small fwds bullshit stick with mots and durdin ,go find them Nick Austin no more lightweights , team needs some size and strength


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 4:24 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7794
Location: Bendigo
Regarding Monahan and Duffy:

Quote:
Schedule 5A, section 3

(iv) If an AFL Player is signed as a Category B Rookie (International Player) prior to 30 June in a given year, the AFL Player and Club will enter into an AFL Standard Playing Contract for a term commencing on the date of signing and expiring no earlier than 31 October in the following year.

(v) If an AFL Player is signed as a Category B Rookie (International Player) after 30 June in a given year, the AFL Player and Club will enter into an AFL Standard Playing Contract for a minimum term of two years commencing on 1 November in that year.

I believe both players come under the second point.

It’s a tremendous waste to let them go, but the reality is we need the list spots.

Perhaps if they’d gone into the Academy at 17yo instead of 19yo, they’d be more certain of a career.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 8:18 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:05 pm
Posts: 2752
bondiblue wrote:
I would offer the following to the players coming out of contract come years end:

150K Cincotta
200K Gov
300K Haynes
650K Silvagni
250K Kemp
120K Lemmey.

DRAFT PLAYER? 1 year deal for one of Wilson / Charleson or rerookie
DRAFT PLAYER I'm not convinced either way in Fynn Young. Haven't seen speed by foot, his strength, let alone speed of mind yet, and good foot passing.
DRAFT PLAYER Trade Motlop for a pick if we are lucky
DRAFT PLAYER Trade Elijah for a pick if we are lucky
DRAFT PLAYER Delist Doc and make him VFL captain.
TRADE PLAYER Delist Fantasia
TRADE PLAYER Take the compo pick and invest the $1M into a $700K bonafide star, and the other $300 towards the salary of a big bodies ruckman
TRADE PLAYER. Delist Binns
TRADE PLAYER Delist Fogarty

DRAFT PLAYER Delist Monohan for Ison as NGA despite David King saying Monohan will be a star. Not sure if he was serious.
DRAFT PLAYER Delist Duffy if Gresham is a better prospect than Duffy

We have no NGA players considered in 2026, and an NGA in 2027 will be Abdullah. He may take Gresham or Duffy's spot of they don't work out.



I guess we'll see at the end of the year. From this I assume you see the following players as our bottom 6:
Motlop,
Elijah Hollands
Fantasia
Binns
Docherty
Fogarty?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 10:30 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Sydney
Elijah isn't bottom 6 by a long shot when he's fit to play, but I guess that may be never


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 1:44 pm 
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John James

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:11 pm
Posts: 641
GreatEx wrote:
Elijah isn't bottom 6 by a long shot when he's fit to play, but I guess that may be never
Ditto Fantasia. His body is cooked, unfortunately.

On an unrelated note, the geniuses on First Crack seem to have finally come to the same conclusion that we did months ago. Let TDK walk, save a million bucks and get a first round pick.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 4:50 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7794
Location: Bendigo
BamBam7 wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
Elijah isn't bottom 6 by a long shot when he's fit to play, but I guess that may be never
Ditto Fantasia. His body is cooked, unfortunately.

On an unrelated note, the geniuses on First Crack seem to have finally come to the same conclusion that we did months ago. Let TDK walk, save a million bucks and get a first round pick.

We’d save about $300k, since he’s already on good loot and we’ll need to list probably two ruck-forwards or forward-rucks, since neither McKay or Lemmey are up to the task.

Whichever way we go, the rules are certain to change in whichever way flowers us the hardest.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 5:08 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 10103
Location: Australia
Crusader wrote:
BamBam7 wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
Elijah isn't bottom 6 by a long shot when he's fit to play, but I guess that may be never
Ditto Fantasia. His body is cooked, unfortunately.

On an unrelated note, the geniuses on First Crack seem to have finally come to the same conclusion that we did months ago. Let TDK walk, save a million bucks and get a first round pick.

We’d save about $300k, since he’s already on good loot and we’ll need to list probably two ruck-forwards or forward-rucks, since neither McKay or Lemmey are up to the task.

Whichever way we go, the rules are certain to change in whichever way flowers us the hardest.


I would have thought McKay has proven himself to be a quite good fwd ruck?

HOK is also looking good.

TDK isn't a fwd/ruck (neither a ruck/fwd) so even if he stays he doesn't solve any of those problems.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:15 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7794
Location: Bendigo
sinbagger wrote:
Crusader wrote:
BamBam7 wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
Elijah isn't bottom 6 by a long shot when he's fit to play, but I guess that may be never
Ditto Fantasia. His body is cooked, unfortunately.

On an unrelated note, the geniuses on First Crack seem to have finally come to the same conclusion that we did months ago. Let TDK walk, save a million bucks and get a first round pick.

We’d save about $300k, since he’s already on good loot and we’ll need to list probably two ruck-forwards or forward-rucks, since neither McKay or Lemmey are up to the task.

Whichever way we go, the rules are certain to change in whichever way flowers us the hardest.


I would have thought McKay has proven himself to be a quite good fwd ruck?

HOK is also looking good.

TDK isn't a fwd/ruck (neither a ruck/fwd) so even if he stays he doesn't solve any of those problems.

Harry is good enough, but he doesn’t want to do it. Never has. Convince me that his epic sook was in no way related to the prospect of playing a role he’s been ducking since childhood.

Skull is a ripper. As good a ruck-forward prospect we’ve had in a long time, even with the major hamstring problems… and yet, they are major hamstring problems. So we’ll need options.

I haven’t changed my opinion of De Koning.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 12:45 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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A good article on why our slow contested midfield has not been as good as past years and why bulls like Cripps are having a slump.
https://www.afl.com.au/news/1366579/the-new-midfield-stars-like-ed-richards-max-holmes-and-finn-callaghan-are-leaving-the-brownlow-bulls-behind

Quote:
Win Contested Possessions, Win the Match
2021 75%
2022 71%
2023 68%
2024 64%
2025 60%

Our 1 wood is gone and our list needs to be adjusted for the evolving game, especially the midfield.
Banking on endurance players vs quick repeat sprint players has cost us a lot too, especially on the wings and coming out of defence.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 1:06 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am
Posts: 8196
Yeah, I thought it was fairly insightful as well.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 1:23 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 10103
Location: Australia
Sidefx wrote:
A good article on why our slow contested midfield has not been as good as past years and why bulls like Cripps are having a slump.
https://www.afl.com.au/news/1366579/the-new-midfield-stars-like-ed-richards-max-holmes-and-finn-callaghan-are-leaving-the-brownlow-bulls-behind

Quote:
Win Contested Possessions, Win the Match
2021 75%
2022 71%
2023 68%
2024 64%
2025 60%

Our 1 wood is gone and our list needs to be adjusted for the evolving game, especially the midfield.
Banking on endurance players vs quick repeat sprint players has cost us a lot too, especially on the wings and coming out of defence.


Is it a natural "cycle" or something manufactured by rule tinkering?

Quote:
It has happened steadily since the 'stand' rule was introduced in 2021 and is now filtering down to the types of midfielders coming through the talent pathways.


Quote:
There have been other years in the AFL when the value of contested ball has dropped right off, with 2009 and 2003 other examples of seasons when fewer games than normal were won by the team that won the hard ball (63 per cent in each).

Bell said the cyclical nature of the game means it is possible stoppages and the contested parts of the game would return to prominence, and the bulls would roam again in larger numbers.

Sometimes it only takes one coach – or one gifted player – to change the strategic direction of the game.


But yes, very clear on why our list structure is wrong for midfielders.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 2:35 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 6844
sinbagger wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
A good article on why our slow contested midfield has not been as good as past years and why bulls like Cripps are having a slump.
https://www.afl.com.au/news/1366579/the-new-midfield-stars-like-ed-richards-max-holmes-and-finn-callaghan-are-leaving-the-brownlow-bulls-behind

Quote:
Win Contested Possessions, Win the Match
2021 75%
2022 71%
2023 68%
2024 64%
2025 60%

Our 1 wood is gone and our list needs to be adjusted for the evolving game, especially the midfield.
Banking on endurance players vs quick repeat sprint players has cost us a lot too, especially on the wings and coming out of defence.


Is it a natural "cycle" or something manufactured by rule tinkering?

Quote:
It has happened steadily since the 'stand' rule was introduced in 2021 and is now filtering down to the types of midfielders coming through the talent pathways.


Quote:
There have been other years in the AFL when the value of contested ball has dropped right off, with 2009 and 2003 other examples of seasons when fewer games than normal were won by the team that won the hard ball (63 per cent in each).

Bell said the cyclical nature of the game means it is possible stoppages and the contested parts of the game would return to prominence, and the bulls would roam again in larger numbers.

Sometimes it only takes one coach – or one gifted player – to change the strategic direction of the game.


But yes, very clear on why our list structure is wrong for midfielders.

I think it is a bit of both.
I also think capped rotations has had a large effect also.
In 2007 the average rotations were 56 and in 2010 they were 113.
Because of injuries they capped them in 2014 to 120, 2016 to 90 and in 2021 to 75.
IIRC It was supposed to slow the game down but instead the team lists have evolved to add speed again with fast repeat runners.
The stand rule also helped with this, as long as you had the runners.
That is why chaos football works so well for D50 transition.

The issue we have is that we also lack the foot skills to make teams pay from contested clearances and also with shots on goals.
So we are screwed on both fronts and is why our game plan looks the same each week and has not improved.
We simply don't have the right players, or enough of them if our first choice are out injured.

Hopefully we get some change at the end of the year.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:00 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Tom Morris
@tommorris32
Blake Acres has missed out for @CarltonFC again this week. He is being rest from the VFL too. A fourth club not out of the question with teams keeping an eye on him. Contracted for two more years.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 5:41 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: threeohfivethree
Effes wrote:
Tom Morris
@tommorris32
Blake Acres has missed out for @CarltonFC again this week. He is being rest from the VFL too. A fourth club not out of the question with teams keeping an eye on him. Contracted for two more years.


Williamstown 3rds?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 7:26 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: afl.virtualsports.com.au
EXCLUSIVE

Blues get HUGE draft boost as No.1 contender opts into father-son rule

Potential No.1 draft pick Cody Walker has nominated for Carlton as a father-son selection

https://x.com/RileyBev/status/1945776366919831691

https://www.afl.com.au/news/1366834/car ... r-son-rule

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