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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:57 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Pafloyul wrote:
spf wrote:
Didn't Chris Bryan have a debut similar to this? Admittedly no Rising Star Nomination (to old I think) but pretty impressive first up.


Moran is about 19, only played around two-thirds of the match and hadn't played football untill he was about 14. 8)


I think he didn't start playing till he was 16/17. He had hardly played any full aussie rules games when he was drafted.

He's basically in the same boat as Aisake... except, you know, getting a game for the VFL seniors.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:11 am 
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Geoff Southby

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wow tyrant,

you're on 11,111 posts.

That's like a triple nelson, except much much worse. One eye, one leg, one testicle, one arm and one ear.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:43 am 
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Ken Hunter
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what's worse is as soon as he responds he ruins it :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:53 am 
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Stephen Silvagni

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We need quality ruckmen.

Minimum 2 rucks in the first 22 and one as back up, in case of injury.

We need quality ruckmen if we are going to feed Stevens, Murphy, Gibbs and Walker, or they will be chasing butts.

French is gone. McLaren and Bryan too short, and are not ruckmen.

We have DeLuca, Aisake, Batson as young genuine talls. As insurance we should keep all 3. But I strongly recommend we choose ruckmen in the draft to give us more options.

As we all know, DeLuca, Aisake and Batson are no guarantees to become quality ruckmen, just as Moran wasn't. But if we have a few up and coming, one should at least make it.

I have strong belief that DeLuca could become one by 2008, if he gets himself stronger and learns more about the position (from Dempsey). Aisake will make it, and Batson is worth the risk and elevation from the rookie list...he has some good qualities.

How do you think we got French and McLaren? They were both the 4th string ruckman from Port and Brizzy. What a coincidence that both these teams have won 4 premierships in recent times.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:18 pm 
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Trevor Keogh

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Joe Jazz,

Aisake as an international recruit is permitted to be on the rookie list for 3 years. Agreed that DMac looks better as a third defensive tall taking the taps in defence but I think Carlos may now have that role.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:35 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Tyrant wrote:
I think he didn't start playing till he was 16/17. He had hardly played any full aussie rules games when he was drafted.

He's basically in the same boat as Aisake... except, you know, getting a game for the VFL seniors.


Please don't tell me that Tyrant. Please tell me your memory is faulty and we didn't make the world's biggest boo-boo. :( :(

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:02 am 
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Trevor Keogh

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Pafloyul wrote:
Tyrant wrote:
I think he didn't start playing till he was 16/17. He had hardly played any full aussie rules games when he was drafted.

He's basically in the same boat as Aisake... except, you know, getting a game for the VFL seniors.


Please don't tell me that Tyrant. Please tell me your memory is faulty and we didn't make the world's biggest boo-boo. :( :(


Do you honestly believe that every time there is someone who goes at a later draft pick than ours and turns out to be better than the player we picked that we've made a big boo-boo?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:03 am 
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Rod Ashman

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Quote:
Do you honestly believe that every time there is someone who goes at a later draft pick than ours and turns out to be better than the player we picked that we've made a big boo-boo?


Mordan, have you read all the posts? Moran may not make it, but he will be a huge young kid on an AFL list next year. Chambers will be delisted. Chambers has been in the AFL SEVEN years. We picked him and he has failed to get more than a handful of games. Yes that is a huge boo-boo. He was not drafted to us as a 17 year old. He was 24/5. If we make bad judgements on guys at that age who have been in the system that long, then yes we have made a big boo-boo. And a raw athletic 18 year old ruckman just learning the game would have been a much better pick regardless of whether he ultimately makes it. We already had the proof on Chambers we just chose to either ignore it or be ignorant of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:32 am 
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Trevor Keogh

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gerry atric wrote:
Quote:
Do you honestly believe that every time there is someone who goes at a later draft pick than ours and turns out to be better than the player we picked that we've made a big boo-boo?


Mordan, have you read all the posts? Moran may not make it, but he will be a huge young kid on an AFL list next year. Chambers will be delisted. Chambers has been in the AFL SEVEN years. We picked him and he has failed to get more than a handful of games. Yes that is a huge boo-boo. He was not drafted to us as a 17 year old. He was 24/5. If we make bad judgements on guys at that age who have been in the system that long, then yes we have made a big boo-boo. And a raw athletic 18 year old ruckman just learning the game would have been a much better pick regardless of whether he ultimately makes it. We already had the proof on Chambers we just chose to either ignore it or be ignorant of it.


Chambers was a mistake. But a mistake regardless of whoever was chosen with the pick after the pick we traded for him. You can't look back a few years later and say it was a mistake because a long shot raw ruckman taken later in the draft has had 1 good game. It was a mistake because we made a stop-gap decision. It was short sighted and probably made a bit out of desparation.

I was really talking more generally than just this trade. You can make the right call at the draft table, and get nothing for it. But there are a lot of people who like to come back 3 years later, pick out a player who was considered a risk at the time and say that somehow we should have had the foresight to know exactly what was going to happen. They seem to think that picking 17 and 18 yo kids is a science, and that if you're good enough at it then you'll end up with 100% success stories. It's not, and you won't.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:30 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Mordan wrote:
gerry atric wrote:
Quote:
Do you honestly believe that every time there is someone who goes at a later draft pick than ours and turns out to be better than the player we picked that we've made a big boo-boo?


Mordan, have you read all the posts? Moran may not make it, but he will be a huge young kid on an AFL list next year. Chambers will be delisted. Chambers has been in the AFL SEVEN years. We picked him and he has failed to get more than a handful of games. Yes that is a huge boo-boo. He was not drafted to us as a 17 year old. He was 24/5. If we make bad judgements on guys at that age who have been in the system that long, then yes we have made a big boo-boo. And a raw athletic 18 year old ruckman just learning the game would have been a much better pick regardless of whether he ultimately makes it. We already had the proof on Chambers we just chose to either ignore it or be ignorant of it.


Chambers was a mistake. But a mistake regardless of whoever was chosen with the pick after the pick we traded for him. You can't look back a few years later and say it was a mistake because a long shot raw ruckman taken later in the draft has had 1 good game. It was a mistake because we made a stop-gap decision. It was short sighted and probably made a bit out of desparation.

I was really talking more generally than just this trade. You can make the right call at the draft table, and get nothing for it. But there are a lot of people who like to come back 3 years later, pick out a player who was considered a risk at the time and say that somehow we should have had the foresight to know exactly what was going to happen. They seem to think that picking 17 and 18 yo kids is a science, and that if you're good enough at it then you'll end up with 100% success stories. It's not, and you won't.


It's a mistake in the context of the ruckman we picked up. We have Batson and O'Hailipin at arguably the same level of development so we'll see how these pan out. IMO I don't think Moran is a ruckman as much as a potential key position back but we'll see what North has in mind for him.

RE Chambers - our list at that time needed pace ... and another running option as we had (and maybe still have) the worst midfield in the comp. He had to be ready to go, not waiting on years of development. It didn't work out but this isn't the reason why we're so bad. Our list is the youngest in the comp anyway, what's holding us back is the poise and execution which comes with experience. The odd punt on players at other clubs (provided we don't give up much for them like we did for the likes of Mansfield, etc) isn't going to adversely affect our progress.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:34 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Mordan wrote:
gerry atric wrote:
Quote:
Do you honestly believe that every time there is someone who goes at a later draft pick than ours and turns out to be better than the player we picked that we've made a big boo-boo?


Mordan, have you read all the posts? Moran may not make it, but he will be a huge young kid on an AFL list next year. Chambers will be delisted. Chambers has been in the AFL SEVEN years. We picked him and he has failed to get more than a handful of games. Yes that is a huge boo-boo. He was not drafted to us as a 17 year old. He was 24/5. If we make bad judgements on guys at that age who have been in the system that long, then yes we have made a big boo-boo. And a raw athletic 18 year old ruckman just learning the game would have been a much better pick regardless of whether he ultimately makes it. We already had the proof on Chambers we just chose to either ignore it or be ignorant of it.


Chambers was a mistake. But a mistake regardless of whoever was chosen with the pick after the pick we traded for him. You can't look back a few years later and say it was a mistake because a long shot raw ruckman taken later in the draft has had 1 good game. It was a mistake because we made a stop-gap decision. It was short sighted and probably made a bit out of desparation.

I was really talking more generally than just this trade. You can make the right call at the draft table, and get nothing for it. But there are a lot of people who like to come back 3 years later, pick out a player who was considered a risk at the time and say that somehow we should have had the foresight to know exactly what was going to happen. They seem to think that picking 17 and 18 yo kids is a science, and that if you're good enough at it then you'll end up with 100% success stories. It's not, and you won't.


Agree entirely Mordan.

We already had two project players of size with the O'Hailipin boys on the international rookie list. How many guys new to the game can you have on a list of 40???

It's amazing how people's attitude to list management has changed and how easy they find it when analysing things a couple of years after. We shouldn't of traded pick x because player x turned out to be star at pick 58. We all wish it was this easy!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:50 am 
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Trevor Keogh

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Dukes wrote:
Mordan wrote:
Chambers was a mistake. But a mistake regardless of whoever was chosen with the pick after the pick we traded for him. You can't look back a few years later and say it was a mistake because a long shot raw ruckman taken later in the draft has had 1 good game. It was a mistake because we made a stop-gap decision. It was short sighted and probably made a bit out of desparation.

I was really talking more generally than just this trade. You can make the right call at the draft table, and get nothing for it. But there are a lot of people who like to come back 3 years later, pick out a player who was considered a risk at the time and say that somehow we should have had the foresight to know exactly what was going to happen. They seem to think that picking 17 and 18 yo kids is a science, and that if you're good enough at it then you'll end up with 100% success stories. It's not, and you won't.


It's a mistake in the context of the ruckman we picked up. We have Batson and O'Hailipin at arguably the same level of development so we'll see how these pan out. IMO I don't think Moran is a ruckman as much as a potential key position back but we'll see what North has in mind for him.


No. Ruckmen are irrelevent when debating whether or not Chambers was a mistake. It wasn't a choice between Chambers and Moran. It was a choice between Chambers and adding another kid to our list. Not a specific kid that we've now identified 2 or 3 years later, but just a kid. We chose Chambers, and it was a mistake.

Dukes wrote:
RE Chambers - our list at that time needed pace ... and another running option as we had (and maybe still have) the worst midfield in the comp. He had to be ready to go, not waiting on years of development. It didn't work out but this isn't the reason why we're so bad. Our list is the youngest in the comp anyway, what's holding us back is the poise and execution which comes with experience. The odd punt on players at other clubs (provided we don't give up much for them like we did for the likes of Mansfield, etc) isn't going to adversely affect our progress.


We felt we needed pace. So we went looking for pace. We found someone who added pace to our list, but didn't really add much else. Easy to say in hindsight, and I'm not so much against the choice of Chambers, but the thought process that lead to us trying to plug gaps in our list with more also-rans from other clubs. Especially when we ended up with players that didn't have the full confidence of the coach and MC. If we're going to trade for someone, make sure it's someone we believe in enough that we give them an extended shot.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:58 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Two years is plenty for an experienced player - if they can't step up, they're gone.

I'm just getting sick and tired of all this hindsight recruiting going on here. All this talk of "we shouldn't have traded the late pick because a certain player got drafted". Moran was a risk, and still is a risk, and was passed over by a number of clubs. Well done to North but Carlton shouldn't be crucified for it. It's a very narrow minded approach to only look at 17 or 18 year olds and ignore guys in their early 20s who still have something to give due to lack of opportunity or other reasons. Was Josh Mahoney a mistake for Port, was Steven Armstrong a mistake for West Coast ... there's plenty of examples of the upside of these players - we just need the balls to back ourselves and get it right more than we have in the past - in addition to adding quality youth every year.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:55 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

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Well put Dukes.

Hindsight is a pain in the butt! As long as we live and learn.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:16 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Quote:
Well put Dukes.

Hindsight is a pain in the butt! As long as we live and learn.


I think a few people are missing the point. The main issue is how can we get it so wrong with Chambers. He was at AFL level for 7 years. How did we decide he was going to be a senior player with us based on 7 years AFL performance and then when he got here decide he wasn't up to it.

And as for live and learn - what about O'Reilly, Devonport, McGuane, mansfield et al. If we have ample opportunity to make judgements on AFL listed players - and 7 years is ample- we shouldn't get it badly wrong.

Everyone knows recruiting is an inexact science, very hard to judge how good a 17 yr old will be in 5 years playing at a totally different level, will he grow etc, what is his character like etc. After 7 years in the system it shouldn't be hard for professionals to get it fairly right.

And also I know it is easy in hindsight, but I think lots of posters questioned the selection of Chambers and Longmuir at the time. We have to be better than everyone at drafting because we have been so much worse than most over the journey.

Everytime we get a Chambers or draft like we did in 2000 we can't just say "Gee it's so hard" We will get some wrong obviously but it burns when we recruit mature players and then wait till they get here to decide they are not worth a game.


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