If i remember correctly you were saying last year that Denis knows what he is doing, that the key issue was to get kids and get rid of some players, especially Campo and Lance. You got most of what you wanted, we had 2 bad pre-season games and suddenly Pagan is an absolute failure and the reason for all problems.

So what changed your mind - especially after just one so, so and one really bad pre-season game?

I don't believe in simple black and white thinking. I believe most things are shades of grey and most issues are more complex then they appear and very few solutions are simple. But black and white is much easier to argue.

Just on game plans, coaches and performance - hypothetical - if we were still under the brittain gameplan, would we be performing better than we are now?

I certainly don't overestimate what he can do during a game.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

pagan has also been quoting that he didnt need a game plan (or something along those lines) as he had carey

In a word - yes.

From what I've seen of both coaches in their time at Carlton, there's little doubt that Britts was a far superior tactican than Pagan, and importantly, for most of his time at Carlton, the players had belief and confidence in his tactics/game plan. And the players liked him.

It was obvious from very early in 2003, the players did not get on very well with Pagan and absolutely lost confidence in his game 'plan' in the 2nd half of that year. Nothing much has changed since then.

Yes, with a massive run of injuries in 2002, Britts also probably lost some of the players but despite all the setbacks, he still got the player group behind him again and finished the season strongly - with a good win against Bullies where his tactical flexibility was underlined. Yes, he got a few floggings over the season but with only 1 or 2 losses over 60 pts his number of floggings pales in comparison to the 7 over 60s flogginfs Pagan secured in '03 (smashing the previous Carlton record of 2 over 60 losses set on 1901 - a record he has smashed in each year since).

How Brittain would have went under our present conditions is difficult to say. One things for sure, if he had have had a record like Pagan's, he would have been sacked by now. Reputation, it seems, exceeds ability.

One thing which was apparent on Saturday was that the players coming out of defence had no one to kick it to. Now I don't know whether this is due to Waite and Fev's lack of fitness, but nearly everytime someone came out of defence there were no options. No one ran to space.

At other times coming out of defence, we'd kick it short to half back - the whole wing is then flooded; Dean Brogan stood there, and a lot of the time we just kicked it straight to him, as though he was the #1 target. The other option was to switch to the other wing or come back through the middle - either way, there was a lack of options, and when Russell tried to switch play he kicked it to a one-on-one. Not singling him out, but it just seems that we don't have players running to space....they all stand still.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

I think your intitial comment Effes was all about Port's defence. There was lots of leading going on but they more often than not had two spare defenders back. SydneyBlue has got me thinking whether that was because the rest of our forwards were flooding back in our D50 but the number of 2 on 1 leads, with 1 cutting them off ala Peter Dean, was very high. Fisher looked quite distressed by it.

With a 4 man forward line and a 6-7 man defence the midfield should have done better! Someone else posted on the shorter chipping kicks being a problem but it was clear to me from training reports and our intrac lub that the short pass would be allowed if the defence was stacked. The problem with us was that the chips went sideways. I donnt think this is Pagan going back on his plan, I think its a failure to execute a modification to a plan we thought was required last year. How many posters last year cried we were bombing long? There must have been 20 threads on it? The short options up ahead were missing on Saturday, and I'm still trying to work out where they were. Being loose is midfield, to the side, doesnn't help a cracker.

I find it interesting when people said we were trying a few different things on Saturday molsey. That's the way to approach these games. See what works, where things break down, who can do what. As long as the players know the coaches are trying a few different things, I can't see the harm in it.

As the bottom side of 2005, it will be interesting to see what approach is taken to change a few things up during the season.

If Fevola fires, we will go okay, as we did in 2004. We didn't bomb long that much...a fair bit, but often Fevola was on the lead and he was kicking beautifully.

If Fevola struggles, that's when we need to do things differently, and now's the time to find out exactly what people can and can't do.

I think we had Lance loose so then Brogan dropped back

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Except for the fact that Fev is completely underdone eh???

He should be in the ressies getting his fitness back there.. and the hard way.

You cant take too much into the season with what Fev is doing...

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Fevola will get fit as the season goes on, hopefully not sustaining any injuries along the way. And a fit Fevola means an awful lot to Carlton.

Port Adelaide were trying things too. Trying to smash the handball record which they did and still topped us by 99 points.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Port Adelaide were premiers 18 months ago (and haven't really lost too much of that side) and Carlton were wooden spooners 6 months ago (and haven't really lost too much of that side).

Port have been smashed us three times since 2004, and we threw in a draw along the way.

Port havent changed much of their flag side eh???

Wanna go through the players???

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B.Pickett
R.James
B.Montgomery
J.Carr
D.Hardwick
D.Wakelin (Didn't play Saturday)
J.Schofield

I don't believe Wilson played Saturday either. Might be wrong on this?

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Carr
Hardwick
James
Montgomery
Pickett
Schofield

Heaps isn't it.

Even Carlton would be talking finals if we had that lot.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

You immediately have to drop Schofield, Hardwick, James and Montgomery off that list as they were at the very end of their careers, and have all since retired.

That leaves Carr.

And the guy everyone screamed blue murder at the TC member who wanted us to pick him.

Maybe the first four at the peak of their careers, but that's just a pipe dream now.

Port still have 3/4 of their Premiership team running around plus Lonie, Motlop, and Shattock.

yes... but thats not anything like their team from 18 months ago is it????

they have had to find one third of a new team....

They have kids like Chaplin and Pearce Deluca and Co... and they beat us by 100 points didnt they???

On our home ground wasnt it???
In front of our supporters wasnt it???

on our family day ....

with a full list except saddington....


Oh yes....

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It's one thing to talk about the team that took the ground on Grand Final Day 18 months ago, they have only lost six players, added three experienced players so they've only lost 15% not 33.3%.

Carlton have had pretty much the same % change from the wooden spoon team from 6 months ago.

Doesn't take a brain scientist to work out who'd have the better team, even if both are trying Harlem Globetrotter tactics.