Losing the picks is only one component of what was a completely f*cked footy club.

Our list was the worst in the comp by a long, long way. We'd have struggled to compete at VFL level in 2002.

Your single-minded determination to dismiss the pile of shit Pagan had to try to polish is absolutely staggering.

I ask, yet again, what action should he have taken that he hasn't? The only replies I've had to this question are to keep Jimmy Plunkett and Callan Beasy, and that I wouldn't know what day it is 'cos I don't live in Melbourne. Just quietly I don't think Plunkett and Beasy would have been our Voss and Brown.

Actually, seeing as miracles are so easy, would you mind driving out to the Hills tonight, I've got a rotting rat's carcass and a pile of horseshit I'd like turned into a seafood platter with all the trimmings please.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

The club got record membership by rattling the tins, operation fight back, stick it up the AFL etc. Pagan had no effect on the membership. Tell me there were supporters sitting back watching our success for years who suddenly thought "S#$% we've got Dennis f#$%ing Pagan where's the phone I've gotta sign up now!"

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Denis was the one ray of hope after Black Friday.

Unless of course you were of the thought that Jimmy Plunkett and Callan Beasy were going to magically become the next Voss and Brown.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Suppose its no different to thinking the same of Bentick and Deluca

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

People got on board because of black Friday. Nobody decided to buy their first membership because of Dennis Pagan. We have had greater coaches than Pagan and they didn't generate membership either.
Deano I didn't have to think anything when I bought my membership cause I've had one since I was 13.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

And in three years time, if they haven't progressed and they are still on the list then, AND ONLY THEN, should Pagan's list management be brought into question.

You can't have a crack at him for clearing out the shit that Brittain thought was going to lead us to the holy grail.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

The pile of shit as you call was not as bad as it appeared -My arguement with Pagan is we have gotten worse. I here people on here say there is a plan in place and a youth policy - If finishing last and getting the best picks and developing youth is a plan - Then Grant Thomas is an Ultimate genius

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

There you go again calling it shit - most of the shit that was cleared were 100 game plus players and replaced with 20 game = players who have now gone - replaced shit with shit - set the club back 3 more years

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I've carried a membership a wee bit longer than that (since I was 13 also, even during my current spell of geographic retardation). Not everyone is as hardcore as us though Game, and some of the 'swaying' membership would have been 'swayed' by the fact that we got a PREMIERSHIP COACH instead of Mark friggin' Harvey or a similar hopeless case.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

A heap of people would have signed up once we appointed a 2 time premiership coach who was promoted as the best coach in the league. I have no doubt we wouldn't have cracked that 30,000 mark if Mark Harvey or Ross Lyon were given the job.

My mate and I signed up at the family day and Denis was a major reason.

Halfway through last year they decided to start a process of making a plan. Hopefully we can start this plan sometime in the next 3 f$%^ng years.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

But could you have pulled the trough from underneath the pigs' snouts?
Would you have cut the deadwood from the list, and this includes "Champions" like Beaumont and Manton?

No matter what coach we appointed the misty-eyeds would be still be expecting the club to be a powerhouse, despite the fact the coal to run it can't be bought with a cheque book any longer.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

The irony is the Saints are widely regarded as favourites for the 2006 flag.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Where are those 100 game players playing now?

Collo and Malouf has done that not Pagan

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

IMO Anthony Franchina would not have reached 100 games at any other club. Until Pagan came along it was harder to get off the Carlton list than get on it.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

We couldn't crack the 30k mark with a 4 time premiership coach, the most dominant player in the AFL in Kouta, full back of the century, club legends in Ratts and Braddles.

We cracked 30k cause they rattled the tins. It shocked people into action. The only supporter Pagan brought was his b!t#$ that sits in the box with him.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

So Pagan had no say in which players were cut yet it's his fault the "100 game" players were cut? I'm confused.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Name me one champion player under the age of 25 that was there when Pagan arrived - just one.

Can't? Probably because again, SAID INDIVIDUAL DOES NOT EXIST.

Our list was f*cked, old and past it. Any players we had that were quality were either a) Kouta or b) in their twighlight years.

Then again, we also had Whits and Campo....

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Where is the crap we replaced them with now - If you are going to rebuild a side as he has set out to do you dont replace Beaumont for Clarke - nearly all of these players that have gone have since retired - they could have retired at Carlton and hell maybe we might not have won those 10 games in 2004 and might not have won the Wizard cup but we would be far better placed for youth than we are now - we are going to have to spend another further 2 drafts cleaning out the rubbish that was brought in

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws