This argument is going absolutely f*cking nowhere.

Game and Sydney Blue are convinced we were a premiership team waiting to happen post 2002, and Pagan has driven us into the ground.

The rest of us however, have some form of sense and logic and an ability to understand reality (despite the geographical shortcomings of some of us).

Agree to disagree, because I know I'm right

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Beaumont led an on-field player revolt that caused one of the most embarrassing losses in our history. You blokes keep banging on about the big losses yet you wanted to keep a rat that turned on his club when it all got too hard?

I don't understand the logic you are applying, if you can call it that.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Because we took it for granted and didn't know how [REDACTED] the club's finances became under Elliott!

Would we have reached 30K members if Cornflakes was given the job? Snowflakes chance in hell.

If Brittain had remained there would have been a lot of members who might not have renewed their subscription.

So what it boils down to is Pagan is paying for Elliott's trangressions and we don't have any young talent?

A lot of what ifs in your post and we'll never know the answer to hypotheticals.

Short term, I'd rather have guys with the right attitude like Clarke and McGrath, than the players who were empowered to run their own show like Beaumont, Campo, etc.

The team that Pagan inherited was terribly imbalanced. All our good players were over 25 and we had no succession plan for their impending retirements. Our under 25's held a small handful of truly decent players, and some of those had obvious flaws (see Fevola and Houlihan).

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Deano I've been having this argument since 2003 on the other board.
Back then the Pagan worshippers were saying the same as you all are now give him 3 years. So what happens in another 3 years? Things are gonna get worse I tell you. We have some real potential young talent coming through but they are 5 years off priming, the major concern for me is the strugglers Pagan has backed. They are all mid 20's and that age group should be the core of your side but they are fringe dwellers in a poor team.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Which is a result of not being able to draft properly. We had jack shit to trade with so ended up resorting to retreads because they are the only players we could actually get.
Unless you wanted to load the team full of youngsters picked in the 70's and 80's.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

One more time Game, because I think you might be a little on the slow side.

What action should Denis Pagan have taken given the set of circumstances he was under?

Here are some answers that are not applicable:

*retire

*keep Jimmy Plunkett

*Keep Callan Beasy

*pray

*Ask Mark Harvey for advice

If you are the astute judge of Australian Rules Football that you would have us believe that you are, and not just another stupid nerd with a keyboard and some spare time, then you should have no trouble at all, using the benefit of hindsight, in mapping out an action plan that Denis should have undertaken.

I wait with baited breath your well thought out reply. With your permission I'd love to email it to all sixteen AFL clubs, as I'm sure they'll be knocking down your door to get your pawprint on a coaching contract after reading said piece of footballing wisdom. Hell, you might even get that headjob that the all-knowing wise sage Mark Harvey has been waiting for.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Which players are ready to replace these strugglers Pagan has backed?

Simpson, Russell and Walker are still only pups learning the game and this is the same argument as Martyn being played ahead of Livo. As much as I love Livo he's obviously up against it to survive another year like all of the 2000 crop.

Who coincidentally haven't stepped up to justify their first round selection and not given Pagan enough confidence to not chase Chambers, Longmuir, etc.

Prendergast wouldn't even make another clubs rookie list!

Logic has no place in this argument Woj.

Why didn't Pagan just buy Jonathon Brown?

SACK THE COACH I SAY! IT'S THE RICHM... I MEAN THE CARLTON WAY!

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

What is wrong with players being able to think for themselves and make decisions . A man who claims he is never wrong is often never right

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

You're a funny guy Deano and you talk a lot of trash. You call me a computer nerd yet you're the one calling me out from behind a computer yesterday.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Thinking for themselves is fine as long as thinking about somebody OTHER THAN themselves.

Beaumont and Campo were lazy pricks who sooked when we finally got a coach who demanded accountability, after having a coach who was happy having players that didn't understand the term "opponent".

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Where's your answer Game?

Where's your answer?

Hmmm?

Where is it?

I don't see it?

Will I ever see it?

Or does it not exist?

Is your answer "Sack the coach"?

Is that your final answer Game?

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I'm not gonna answer someone who keeps insulting me. I've put up plenty of posts in this thread that you ignore and you just come straight after me. You keep throwing insults from hiding behind your computer screen people might start thinking you are a coward.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

OK, if I haven't noted your answer perhaps you could repeat them.

Off you toddle.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Those two players are what you say they are if you listen to the people on here who continually bag them but the truth be known most of them would not have a clue what they were like. These two guys didnt like Pagan and his methods thats obvious- Pagan didnt like them - so who is right and who is wrong - We are last and playing crap so maybe just maybe Beaumont Campo and others are a lot more intelligent than you are led to believe. Implementing a game plan when you dont have the players to pull it off doesnt make a lot of sense to me. And now judging by the training reports the game plan is changing . So it has taken 3 years for the penny to drop. No wonder Campo an Beaumont left

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Where is your answer Deano is it Pagan - Last time I checked last three years worst coaching record ever. So where is Pagans answers . I want results not memories of a coach that coached flags at a different club 7-10 years ago

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Paganophobes always throw up the "we could've hired a cheap, lesser-known coach and still finished bottom" argument, but they still have no answer to the question as to what should have been done differently.

The list was lopsided and poor.
The club had no early picks to trade for genuinely good players, or to use on the cream of the draft.
The club had no players that were worth a cracker on the trade table, apart from a handful with contracts so large that other clubs laughed at us.

What is the alternative to what Pagan has been doing?

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Wojee hasn't "insulted' you (as you put it) Game - answer his question, or people will start to think you don't know what you are on about.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.