Atleast there is the evidence of a wooden spoon for these so-called Pagan bashers to draw upon.

I don't necessarily agree with them....cos I know there are extenuating circumstances..but bloody hell, can you forgive them for questioning?

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

I blame Fred.

No, because their logic is flawed, and their arguments have no merit at this stage.

They are taking swipes at Pagan simply because they look on him as a symbol of the ousting of Big Jack, the man who almost single-handedly put us in the shit we've been swimming in for the last 3 years.

So they snipe and swipe at Pagan, who's been busting his arse to haul our club out of the shit, building a team for the future, not just this season, building a team of mates, who will play for the club, and for each other, not just next month's pay, and the promise of a brown paper bag.

And on top of the sniping, they offer no thoughts to the future, just nostalgia for the past, when success was as close as buying a great team for the sort of bucks no other club could afford. They offer no positivity for the future, and the things Pagain has offered the club so far, or the things which he is building towards, nor any suggestions on how we might be able to help lay the foundations towards our 17th flag.

Their idea of what makes a club great is the same thing we ridicule about Collingwood and Essendon* about. A practice I hope we've learnt the lesson from and have left in the past.

Questioning is one thing, but it must be based in reality and rationality.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Both sides are like a high school debating team...everyone full of hot air and self importance.

I'm hardly surprised though.

Carry on.

Ditto for me. If one, just one, viable alternative was offered I'd listen.

However I'm still waiting.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

A bit the same as when you and Synbad are having one of your 'circular converstions'.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

We don't do that any more though...well I don't anyway.

So there!

LMAO this coming from a loser that calls me out to meet him face to face then when I tell him I will he asks if he can bring his mates.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Let me get this straight.
If I dont believe Denis Pagan is the best man for the job, it's because I support John Elliot?

Is that correct?

Is it at all possible that I can be judging Denis Pagan on his current coaching and believe he is not the best person to take us forward?
Is it at all possible that I was a vocal opponent of Elliott yet I have serious concerns about Pagan?

You have an interesting view on opinions different to your own KK.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I don't have a problem with people questioning Pagan.

I don't agree with them, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and is allowed to express it.

I just get sick of almost every thread being hijacked and turned into a Pagan/Campo/Lance/Kouta bashing thread.

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I AM DISENFRANCHISED

So where's your answer?

You wouldn't answer me because I 'insulted' you.

Wojee asked the same question - where is his answer?

At least Sydney Blue has made an attempt to back up his opinion - although seeing as how he doesn't live in Melbourne I guess that's not really valid, is it?

Your Richmondesque "sack the coach' reasoning is hollow and plastic.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I actually was referring to others rather than you, BV, if you must know.

You, on the other hand, haven't let Pagan have an unhampered run with the right cattle to be in a position to judge properly.

The flower and troublemakers have moved on or been moved on, we've got an injection of genuine exciting young talent. Now is year one, not 2003. Let's see what you say come this time next year.

Maybe Pagan isn't the man to win our 17th. I'd like to think he is, but I can guarantee he will be the one laying the foundation for the next flag.

And for him to have done it under the circumstances in which he did, he should get a f*cking sainthood!

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

I did answer Wojee. I've never said any coach would deliver premiership glory. I think if we had a different coach he may have went a different way about things. Do you not think it was low of Pagan to not be at Ratten's press conference when he retired?
I'm a Carlton supporter and I will back club champions like Ratts and Braddles over a hot headed over payed shinboner.
Had we not won that damn Wiz cup he would never have been signed early and we would be rid of him now cause he never would have accepted the reduced offer at seasons end. Then he would be just like Campo, right?

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Game, I'm off to a BBQ this arvo, to discuss footy with my equally ignorant non-Melbourne residing mates.

I'll probably be home about 11 - that gives you a good ten hours to come up with something that might resemble an answer to the above.

I look forward to checking the thread when I get home.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

So a different coach would still have Bradley and Ratten playing today would he?

What different actions would a different coach (such as the earlier suggested Mark Harvey) have taken that would have us further ahead where we are now?

Exactly where has Denis gone wrong?

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Hot headed?

A hot headed Hawthorn back pocket coached to us 3 flags and was never labelled a Hawk when he was in charge.

Would you rather a coach who is as calm and contemplative in the box as Grant Thomas?

A pretty poor assertion that the Wizard Cup win not the absence of a more qualified coach was the reason he was re-signed.

For starters he treated the club captain like sh#$ and gave him no respect back in 2003 which triggered the whole player revolt. Despite what people think they didn't have it in for him before he came because they loved Britts.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

You're kidding aren't ya? Pagan went straight to the board after the cup win and wanted to negotiate.
If they told him to wait till seasons end there is no way they pay him what he got and he would have left cause he is only here for the money. Thats why he left his beloved North remember.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

When should you start negotiating on a contract?

And who should coach us if he wasn't re-signed?

Mark Harvey?


You're wrong again, he left North because they wanted him to do more than coach and write for the Herald Sun.

In fact, he was labelled a traitor by some Hawthorn people, even when he returned to Glenferrie.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.