I reckon Porters 1st game was just about his best. Remember his tap down to Bradley who went for a run and goaled from outside 50?

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

No you keep telling me I'm wrong so find out for yourself from someone else.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Game

Looking after club champions is not the solution to taking us forward. Surely you accept that part of our problem is that for too long we have looked after (with kid gloves) our so called champions.

Whether it was Pagan, Lyon, Harvey or Britts, soemone was going to have make some bloody tough and ruthless calls. Everyone of the so called Carlton champions that has left since Pagan's arrival was past their best and it was way past time that we started to re-build. The fact that Pagan was a shinboner rather than a Carlton champion reeks of all the inherent problems of self absorbtion that Collingwood are only getting over (40 years on).

I would also challenge your statement that Parkin respected Carlton champions - you only have to have been around when he was very challenged with getting rid of Wayne Johnston, Jimmy Buckley and Harmsey who were all past being ready to go - it just took someone brave enough to finally make the decision. I would also argue that our inability to make tougher calls then (in the late 80's) is a consistent thread with the virus that still shares its effects today.

To blame Carltons plight on Denis Pagan and last three years is not only myopic but dangerous. Our issues extend way back to the amazing successes that started in the 60's - and the self absorbtion that has come with it. A great thing and who would change it for anything.

However, like back in the 50's and 60's we have pain to go through and tough calls to be made. Just as the culture and successes of the 70's/80's was different to what went before it, the culture and successes of the the next 20 years will be different. We have to evolve.

My recommendation to you and others would to be to get on board, change is happening - it is real, it is needed, it is not always savoury - whether you like it or not.

One thing is for certain, the journey will be worth every minute of it. Cause i for one believe that we will be back bigger and better.

When? who knows, but the blocks are being put in place. Come on get on board!

london blue....thanks for stemming the "It's all their fault" sentiments.

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Isn't our logic flawed too? I mean this is fans discussing football, not physics.

We have a bloke at the top which has in my mind, wasted at least 2 yrs of our club on recycled no hopers and trying to force an outdated gameplan upon us. We know now that he is striving for input from the new assistants and incorporating an interily different idea and he has finally put an end to recycling...A bit late for a proven coach? Some might say.

Ok, In my mind this was almost necessary to employ a proven coach. 1. To get the memberships up 2. To get sponsorship deals. 3. So us fans wouldn't start a revolt of somesort and stop supporting.

But who's to say that employing a Mark Harvey, Ross Lyon or Barry Mitchell that we just may (after some heartache) be in a better position right now.? We are going on what ifs...The bashers are like "what if some young coach would have us in a better position right now" and we are like "But what if Pagan can build a solid unit and get us to the finals"

At the moment we are shit. Blame it on the entire situation or you can blame the Coach if you want. So be it..................

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

You were wrong to bag Pagan as a money grubbing Shinboner.

If you make a statement you should at least have the balls to back it up and not skate around the issue.

What london said!.

GET ON BOARD!!!

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Why he left North to come here for more money. That is fact. North couldn't afford him hence the extra activities that would see others pay his wage that he was NEVER going to do thus Carlton's offer was 200k more than Norths.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

But recycling discards was the only way the club could get mature bodied players to the club. No draft picks to trade, and no players that any other club was willing to trade for.
It's not surprising that the club has stopped grabbing recycled players now that it is able to fully participate in the draft and trade period.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

First point - my logic is always impeccable. So there

Your point about "wasting 2 years on recycled no-hopers" isn't entirely relevant. What else could he have done? Stuck with players who would rather not play than play under Pagan? Just let us have a list of 22 players? We simply didn't have access to decent players those years. Full stop. If he had have gone for youngsters in the high draft numbers you might be moaning about how he picked nothing but dud young'uns. He had no access to the first 2 years of the draft effectively, and I ask again What else could he have done? And add to that, what else could anyone have done?

And how dare you call Nick Stevens a recycled no-hoper

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Yeah I agree with you about that...I found it basically the only path to take, however there are plenty of people who still insist that they would've started the rebuilding back then, with rookies and late picks. (I reckon thats crazy) Also they'd have you trade some players now such as Fev and Lance to get even more picks. Just a 'if you're gonna rebuild then don't do it half cocked' attitude.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Same shit, different bucket. What's the difference between getting recycled duds comapred to untried duds? At least the retreads have big match experience, which is a thing you can't teach.

Either way, we would still be right here in exactly the same position were are in now.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

I think the 'untried' bit is the key there. But yeah...maybe it wouldn't be any different now...but I suppose you never know, and for the life of me I can't imagine it being any worse...

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

What's done is done.....it's history.

It's a new season!....the best time of the year (for us)....

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Oh how and why did I get involved in this thread! Maybe I have a fear of happiness?

GET ON BOARD!!!

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Andrew McQualter, Sam Fisher, Matt Egan, Shane Tuck

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Were all overlooked by 15 other clubs unlike stars such as Heath James, Brad Smith, Karl Norman, Paul Thomas and Matthew Lokan.

I think Fisher, Bentick and Betts even the ledger, unless we also want to point the finger at Carlton overlooking Danyle Pearce for Batson?

20/20 hindsight is a beautiful thing.

It may have been a mistake to follow the strategy that Pagan did, but considering the uncertainty surrounding draft selections, particularly late in the order, it doesn't mean the reasons behind his decisions were wrong.

Look at why he made the decisions, not the end result later. Even then, I'm far from convinced we would be any better off than we are now.

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde

Some more words of wisdom

Once again, comments like that show you have your head stuck up your arse and your anything to do with the elliott days, you will continue to blame as our current demise.

I don't @#$%&! get you at all! I shouldn't even bother with inane, pathetic comments like that. Why am i wasting my breath debating with some clown who berates anyone who disagrees, and never for one minute takes on board the opinions of others, often spitting abuse when he realises others are disagreeing with him.

Hey, sos was part of that era. I suppose he is a disgrace as well, and his service wasn't worth it all because of where we are at now.

Synbad, What more could these players have done?!

Well done Braddles. Good luck with your coaching apprenticship at the dons (Who gives a f..k, he is a 370+ game player). He has done enough good at Carlton.

Synbad, one thing you can't deny is bradley's work ethic and lifestyle. I know your not that stupid to think that because you can be quite intelligent sometimes.

His fitness and durability led him to go on way past Sticks, Diesel and these types. That's incredible.

Hopefully Braddles you'll be back at Carlton someday, but best of luck to you mate.

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

Someone asked what options there were other than drafting discards.

Effes gave a perfectly legitimate answer.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.