He isn't an out and out star defender who can take every opponent and the fact we had to put a wingman on him typifies this. He beat Rocca but he isn't exactly quick or agile and Riewoldt ran him off his legs in a quarter despite his football brain.

We need more picks to build a side and his moving on won't cost us any wins.

The issue is that crowds wont be back if you have your Gibbs/Walkers/Murphys AND continue to tank/aim for 4 wins the next season. That isnt selling people a vision or a future. The attitude will be we've heard it all before - why should we believe you now? At that stage a lot of supporters wont turn up until they actually see results.

I totally agree that playing and developing whatever kids we can get our hands on is what we have to do - There is a plan/vision there that supporters can follow. It gives hope. Where I do disagree is the statement that we should AIM for 4 wins this and next year just to get that extra early priority pick. If that is the plan (stated or as evidenced by continued poor onfield performances) then supporters/sponsors may as well just not show up until 2009 (2008 at the earliest if every single draft pick comes good the year they are drafted).

Oh and on longmuir, chambers, saddington - I've never been an advocate of Pagans recycled player policy. Even though I rate longmuir as a player (probably the only one out of all the recycles we picked up), I didnt think we should have traded our 4th round pick for him. I seem to recall that you, on the other hand were quite supportive of those policies back then (perhaps less so this year with saddington, but definitely previous years) - so why are you lecturing me on the need to stop playing the recycled players?

CG

You are quoting out of context - the caveat to that statement was the previous sentence

It follows that if we were to proceed down that path then we would need to finish with 4 or less wins for the priority pick at the end of this season. Or are your reading/logic skills really that bad?





Your just pulling stuff out of your ass now. Ignoring the the traded and later round picks, you would list picks 1 and 17 assuming we finished last. That pick 17 could be either deemed the priority pick (which comes before the second round) or the second round pick (if you forgot the priority pick entirely as seems to be the case with the last line quoted above). So on technicalities (especially when considering your last statement), I'm in the clear.

Oh and first mistake ever? I didnt want to be too picky but it seems as if you cant even do math properly. You have our 3rd round pick listed at 32 - an obvious mistake given that 16X2 = 32 - problem is you forgot to add 1 to change it into a third round pick - This pick will actually move further down the order assuming other clubs finish with a priority pick as well (north and Essendon* being the most likely candidates atm)





Let me see, 2006, 2007, 2006 - WTF? Obviously it was a typo (which most people would recognise) and should have read 2006, 2007, 2008 (numbers are sequential you know) ie one would expect a 6.5mill loss in 2008.

Ahhhh... CG, cant you come up with anything better than picking up cheap points on a typo?



2 extra wins would have meant the loss of marc murphy - whether we would have missed out on kennedy is subjective given collingwoods desire for pendelbury. Or are you suggesting that we would have missed out on first round draft picks altogether?

Carlton 'God' lol - deities are nothing without worshippers. Learn to be self sufficient why dont you? At the very least I can read my own entrails to see the future

exactly

Plenty of money was thrown around by plenty of teams. There are lots of stories about other clubs offering interstate or country stars bucketloads of money, flying them into the club via helicopter etc.

Most teams did it.

Carlton just did it better than everyone else for 20 years.

Carlton had an unproductive 20 years before 1968, but we still tried to get the best players just like every other club, except most other teams did a better job in those 20 years.

Swings and roundabouts.

IMO it is unfair and a slap in the face to the players, coaches and administration to say Carlton bought their premierships, somehow inferring that other club never had the opportunity.

_________________
|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

So you believe in those days StKilda, Fitzroy and Melbourne for example had an opportunity to do what Carlton did?

Really???
you obviously dont now your history
Jezza was signed up to go to North until Menzies was involved.
Percy Jones was meant to go to Melbourne.. but something happened...
We were always the best at pulling the strings to bring people to us..

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I think we're all getting delusional in TC. I concur with Jarusa to claim we bought all our premierships is a slap in the club's face. Every club recruited their interstate guns - we did it better than most clubs - in fact we did most things better than other clubs prior to 1985. Our big money grab for players occurred at the end of the 1985 season. From this point you may have an argument that the '87 & '95 flags were on the back of the spending spree. The flags before that were not.

An example - 1979 GF name our "bought" players? Was it Johnno, Sheldon, McConville, Ashman, Marcou, Harmes, Buckley, Francis, Brown, Armstrong, Young, Southby, McKay, Maclure, Austin, Doull, Jones. Or I get it it was Fitzpatrick was it? Or was it Klomp? Every club carried on their books 2-4 interstate recruits so don't give me the delusional thing!

Get reeal!!
with these guys were nothing too...

Lance should be first cab of the rank.
Fev id keep because we need a presence,
Stevens it would depend on whats for offer.

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Go talk to Precy about how he and Jezza ended up at Carlton...

Jezza was from Canberra and as such back then was in the North zone.. Menzies pulled a few strings to get him to Carlton from Canberra where Menzies had one or two contacts.
Take Jezza out of the 70/72 and 79 flag sides...

Just for starters...

But then again Rod.. i bow to your knowledge...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Duuuh .. were insolvent now ... The AFL with guarantee to keep us afloat...

And the only way you can get people to come and buy from your shop is if you have stock.

We dont have stock.. and until we get stock we will continue to swat flies..

With Lance Kouta etc or without..

Thats what happens in the REAL WORLD... you either have a commodity people want or you dont...

Whats the point of winning 5 games???.. cos youre not going to win many more... like you wont be playing finals footy in the near future..

were not even competitive at the moment.. so there is no baby... (when you talk leadership group) there is only bathwater... and babies.. and we need more of those to grow..so they can give us hope,

Were not going anywhere with Kouta.. Lance.. etc...

You just have to bite the bullet and do it again.. properly..
Can you also explain to me how you come up with the magical 32k break even figure???

Also .. is the future of the club more in Lances hands or Murphys and Walkers??

Do you go to the footy to watch Lance right now or Murph??

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

here here.

If you read my post I said most teams had the opportunity to buy players, not all of them.

People forget, but Carlton was also excellent throughout those successfull 20 years at developing it's own talent through the U15's, U17s U19's. Lots of good players came through that system.

_________________
|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Jarusa.. few clubs had the money we did or the contacts we had...

Can WBA go out and buy Ronaldo???

Or would e go to Chelsea??

Between the two clubs...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Hes talking about fairweather supporters in there Surrey...put your hand up.

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

But a few clubs did.

What you are saying is it only takes one thing to win a premiership.

We should have won 20 in a row using that logic.

What happened from 1947 to 1968 then?

It's an insult to everyone involved at the club to reduce the period of succes from 68 to 87 to one simplistic argument.

_________________
|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Synbad you are correct. Royce Hart loved those Pelaco shirts that were offered by Richmond that he came over to Victoria to check them out a lot closer.

We could go on about many of the gun interstate recruits and how they "landed" at their clubs.

The carlton "bought" premiership argument gets to me and I could say the same for other power teams in the 80's:

Ess - Weston, Duckworth, Dunnell, Baker
Haw - Platten, Buckenara, Hall, Dunstall

What we did do is use the system available to the best of our ability.

It is one thing to identify talent its another thing to bring them to the club.

Money is one thing but success is another.

Very hard to attract talent when not successful, even harder to do it when you have no money and aren't successful.

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Yes.. you got me there didnt you???



Look, there is no slap in the face for winning those premierships because we played the winners game best.
Thats what it is all about and thats my post.

Flags are won by whatever club plays the game best.
Were last beacuse we have been playing the game least best.

Life is like that... you dont become best by not understanding your market and what youre doing in whatever field youre in.

People cant get their heads around this thing because the AFL have created a system to reward being shit.. so your reward comes with being shit.

Excellence is only measured by how shit you are first... but its still the system.... and thats what you manipulate.

Fos us we have no choice.. we have a poor list.. poor technology.. poor resources... so why fight excellence and ultimate growth ??
Thats what the AFL created.. well it suits us!!!!

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Jarusa we competed with 4 clubs at most. Why do you think the AFL made the changes it has made? Today we compete with 15 clubs and we are the worst run club in the AFL.

We were good at producing players when we had zones (No competition), our draft record is abysmal because we could not embrace the system.

Trade stevens because he is over twenty four years old and not a very good player.
Keep Whitnall and Fev because they are over twenty four and are very good players.