And you get Pagan-comedy thrown into the deal...!!

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"...that's the thing about opinion - you don't have to know anything to have one..." Andre Agassi commenting on Pat Cash 2004
"...the less you know - the more you believe..." - Bono 2006

That's how I feel about Jon English.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Good players, perceptive supporters will see that Denis is a good coach.

Early this year at a practice match a certain player who will be delisted as soon as the Bullants win the GF hopefully, was surprisingly whinging and complaining that DP hasn't given him enough opportunities.

I knew then and there that this player did not deserve to be at Carlton. He sounded like a little kid complaining to his mum. He was talking to a mate and I who he had never met before. I appreciate his honesty but he just went too far. Anyway watching him play several Bullants games he didn't deserve a gig this year.

I have attended many Bullants games and listening to Mitchell at quarter and three quarter time I wouldn't say he is up to the number one job. If you think Pagan can be hard on players I have heard Mitchell berate some of our first year players in front of supporters to the point of embarrassment.

I don't make these comments in support of Pagan as I'm unsure if he should stay or go but one thing is for sure there will be players delisted who will blame the coach for their demise.

There are some players as frightened of Mitch as they are of Denis. Both will click with some, and upset others.

My personal opinion..(and I stress, my PERSONAL opinion) is that (if true, and I don't have a reason to question Josh in this instance) if a player (who according to the source is about to be delisted) starts talking to people who he can't trust to keep the info to themselves, he is an idiot.

If he talked knowing the source would spread the word, he doesn't deserve to be part of the team.

If he talked, trusting the source not to spread the word, then the source needs to look at his motives.

IMHO.

Why, you think he's making it up? While it woild help in regards to validation you certainly don't expect anyone to break confidentiality and mention names either.

The player prefaced his comments with "I'm not known to speak out but I know my time is running out so there really isn't any harm in it."

I reported earlier in the year some of the younger guys have harped on the dissatisfaction with Pagan. I knew before I posted there would be the usual 'well he's on his way out so what else do you expect him to say' crap, but I really think those who don't wish to take such comments seriously are burying their heads firmly in the sand.

The player is extremely well spoken, humble and with a very good career to fall back on after footy, so you could hardly classify him as vindictive.

Dr Sherrin- its time for a change and a change at the top.

I'm thinking Teague or Prenda.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

I have been posting to this site and TBV for a number of years and Josh generally makes very reasonable posts and does not bullshi8t

and none of what he posts surpises me. How can any sports team be happy with a coach that has coached his team to 2 wooden spoons in succession after 5 years at the helm. He wouldn;t survive at any other sports team, let alone an AFL club

time for a change...let's sell the vsion to our supporters.

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Go Blues

Well that narrows down the field, is Prenda on his way to a law career?

Well I must have been a grumpy fool yesterday then! Nothing against josh - who's posts I usually enjoy reading - but to my way of looking at it - it doesn't make a bit of difference who is there in 2007. There will still be an element of the playing group that doesn't like the coach...whether that's Pagan or not - doesn't matter. Also - the way I look at things - there needs to be change at the level higher than the coach.

If it's Prenda - I'm surprised. His latest injury probably hasn't helped - but I sat amongst some ex-footballers - one now on the board during the game against Port and that game was the last game Prenda was ever going to play for the club judging by what i heard and saw. he should have, like those advocating the rise of Barry Mitchell to the top job - realised his limitations - before openly airing public critisism of the coach and the players' opinions of him.

If it is Prenda then he would be dissatisifed wouldn't he?


The thing is Josh regardless of how much of a nice bloke he is he would be pissed off that he is on the outer and soon gone and that must impact on his perceptions of the situation. He is not outside the loop so his views are biased and that is not crap, its just the way it is.

Like all arguments (and you should know this with some of the run ins you've had with Synners ) there is more than one stance, one point of view, one way of stating something.

Facts are usually perceptions, truths are usually opinions.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I can not imagine any playing list in the AFL where all listed players love the coach. I can not imagine a playing list that lacks onfield success without mumblings in the ranks (look at the Cats).

I am actually surprised how good morale amongst the group seems to be onfield. The group is playing the games out and does not look like a group the coach has lost or drops its collective head.

While I agree that some change is needed - I think there is far too much witch hunt when it comes to Pagan.

Actually starting in about 10-15....hope we have spome posters who attended...what a beautiful day to be down at MCLP

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

Correct, and I think the reason for the moral being 'up' is that they understand where they are and where they're going. We are piecing together one of the most talented and youthful teams in recent memory.

Going against almost everybody on this forum, I for one can see Denis as the man to lead this young and in-experienced group up the ladder. Once they put one foot in front of the other and progress they're gonna love the crusty old bastard like a father.

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end of message

Gee ... an un-named player on his way out criticising the coach.

Hold the front page!

These posts are gutless. If you're so sure of the source, name him. If not, you may as well just say "I reckon the players hate Pagan and thats why we should get rid of him".

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In WADA we trust

Well your not exactly going to do it while you are still playing

Or are you Akermanis

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Well then people shouldn't quote this rubbish until someone is willing to put their names to it.

My gut feeling is that its just made up crap. Whatever helps people justify their own opinions I guess ... never mind the facts or sources.

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In WADA we trust

k

And you dont at all care for the breach in players confidentiality if I was to name names?
He said what he said in a private conversation- the point of the post was to let a few posters in on the mood around the club and at the same time respecting the players privacy..
if you want to take that as a grain of salt, then, as Hughesy would say, "good on yooouuu."

In all honesty if it's that confidential and private then maybe you shouldn't be posting anything at all. Would the player in question be happy that you've posted details of a private conversation on a public website?

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa