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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:14 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Elwood Blues1 wrote:
Problems are easy to identify..

1.Poor recruiting since 95....reliance on senior ageing star players with no succession plans to replace these players....
2.Because of poor recruiting we threw our eggs in a few baskets and ended up with a heap of stupid long term contract players on big bucks....forget campo etc ..we were paying players like Beaumont big dollars in relation to ther worth...
3. Club is a shambles when Collo takes over, Pagan employed with no room in salary cap, senior players on the gravy train getting big bucks and no young talent.
Sponsors wont go near us and we are a third world football club...

How can you blame Pagan for this I'll have a go and name names.....

Parkin/Elliott/Kinnear/Hanly/OSullivan...................Not Pagan...about the only sensible thing Elliott did was get Pagan.
I dont include Brittain...was a fall guy and from all reports a decent bloke but given the poison chalice....

Jacks famous quote that Carlton dont rebuild or if they have to its just in the off season has really come back to haunt us and just shows how far out of touch the bozo's running the club were with the modern game.....no weights program..can you believe that!......U18 recruiting was treated as a novelty...we could always buy our way out of trouble or as it turned out into trouble....
Get a grip some of you...Pagan isnt the saviour just part of the rebuild process but he isnt the cause of the problems either...


So refreshing to hear; Elwood!....I am so sick and tired of the "It's all Pagan's fault "brigade.

There was another CEO at PP....John G.....I can't recall his name....he must have been up to his neck in everything?...and Steven Gough?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:29 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Couldnt agree with you more Elwood having looked at our recruiting history from 1999 - 2005 is really highlights the problems we have today prob goes back to 1995 i think we also got Murry Vance lol so our oppurtunities to draft have been severly compromised .. list of Aging stars some poor trades ... stupi salaries ..... We had salary problems when we finished last on the ladder go figure ...

So Pagan has no blame for that .. in fact he is the first coach we have had in last 5-6 Years to proplerly use the draft to the best effect

Nah its not all glum he has uncovered some talent out of nothing ie

The Club finacially is better we have got sponsers back and membership is good.

I am looking forward to the rest of the year to see who stands up .... see developement of our kids in the Seniors or Bullants .... and hopefully to own this years draft IE be the only club to win less than 5 1/2 Matches so we get picks 1 and 2

Then i will feel more secure that hopefully we can bounce back similar to the Tigers ...

ALso i think that maybe Pagan recruited in the 2004/2005 draft for the veiw of 2006 So maybe he sees that Hartlett / Russell / Raso Well definately for 2006 / Blackers ... and of course Sanatanta for 2006

So we have some good things to look forward for in 2006


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:33 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 11:23 pm
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Beaumont/Fletcher/Murphy? You guys are on drugs!

Beaumont can't get a game with Hawthorn, another poor team (only on current performance), and from all reports is on the outer now.

Fletcher was delisted by a bottom rung side.

Murphy is average, and was playing terribly under Pagan. He and his bum-chum Beaumont, ridiculed Pagan openly. It is no coincidence that he has played with a number of clubs. (Alledgedly fighting with a team-mate whilst at Geelong.)

Synbad and CC, I love reading your posts. They are precise, informative, and to the point.

I am a self-confessed lover of the Golden Boy and the Golden Coach.

For mine...Stevo for Captain in 2006, giving Kouta time to just concentrate on his game in his twilight year.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:46 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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anyone hear parkin today/ Got stuck into the draft did parko, hates the idea of having to draft 18 year olds - sound familiar - nowe david has some sound points and i agree with a lot except this - that was the system and we needed to embrace it!!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:00 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
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CarltonClem wrote:
Sydney,

How do you explain the fact that a player like Jarrad Waite is averaging more marks and more goals this year? He's improving is he not? Should have heard Robert Walls gushing about the guy. Sure, there's sentiment because Wallsy played with Vin, but he was pointing out Waite's attributes.

His marking has improved out of sight and is a one-grab mark now, kicks a lot better at goal and his field kicking was excellent on Saturday night with good passes to Fevola and Whitnall. That was the thing he's needed improvement on and he's done it. You want to blame Denis for this?

Walker's development - he's smoothened the edges on his game that tarnished his first year, his disposal, his decision-making, his attempt to be flashy everytime he got the ball and this year has taken a lot of steps forward to be a more complete player. Denis dropped him a couple of times in order to teach him some things and he's come back better than before. You want to blame Denis for this?

These two young players were amongst our best on Saturday night and Fisher is a well-known Pagan favourite because of his ability to mark the ball, his willingness to work hard and his willingness to learn. And when he comes back he'll provide an answer up forward.

Thornton - takes the best forward every week, has done really well considering our midfield is sh*t and gets smashed every week and delivery is usually laces out.

You want to blame Denis for these guys? These are the 3 potential champions we could probably build a side around - as you can see it's not many at all. Want to blame Denis for this? You can't say we have a sh*t list and then say that Denis isn't developing them or getting the best out of them. Last year we had a very similar list, players this year were regulars last year and they won 10 games. Maybe he got the best out of them last year?

But you can't seriously say that Denis is at fault for the improvement of those 3?


CC Waite is not passing the ball to Fevola when he is 20 metres in the clear.

I wont argue that these guys are potential champions my arguement is that their progression is very very slow.

and please dont tell me that Fevola has come on under Pagan . All Denis did was to convince a guy who has the potential to be the greatest player ever to play the game to stay at the club. He is still under performing and if he stays at the club we will never see how good this guy could have been.

Maclean - Sylvia and Cooney are all far more advanced than Walker. Even Delidio taken a year later is showing more.

when will you guys get it through your head that the generation gap between Pagan and the players is far to wide and the communication is not getting through. Iknow when it will be it will be at the end of 2008 when we have progressed to 13th on the ladder and You and others on this site will still say Pagan has got a plan for the future. Hell we might even win the Wizard cup that year. Eade Wallace Clarkson - Craig all applied for their jobs with a plan for the club and how they planned to implement it . The only thing Pagan did was accept a fist full of dollars from elliott

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:17 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:27 pm
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Sorry SydneyBlue you are wrong we cant do much with the list we have and i think Pagan is already planning for 2006 i not gonna keep repeating myself but if you think our list is so more advanced than what it is on papar look at how our list stacks up with any other in the competion ... our list is a shambles .. and all Pagan did was take over a sad list and even when we bottom out he cant improve it through the draft .. why because our previous admin stuffed the salary cap and we got stung badly by the AFL i still reckon was way too harsh

Pagan has already achieved what he has wanted to in 2005
He Got $$$ in the wizzer club and the start to the season the Blues needed
He got members and Sponsers on board due to the over achievment of 2004 and the wizzer cup so Members signed up
He got his coach renewal based on the the above factors and has a long term plan
If we bottoms out this year though will be bad on his reocrd he will finally have access to the best talent available.

Look beyond 2005 this club is a basket case and is currently under major reconstruction you are looking a very short term view. This will not be fixed over nite. And our proper start for a bounce back is 2006 nothing we can do with the list we have.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:28 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Hmm so your point is that Pagan came to Carlton with no plan? Do you honestly beleive that? Elliott administration would have destroyed any plan that he did have by cheating the salary cap. He also stayed with a salary reduction would you see Ayres etc doing that?

Why did Pagan bring over Martyn?? Sydney I beleive that you would think it was so his old fullback can get the 300 up? But could it have been to bring a mature body over to help support and develop Livo and Tbird? Dont you think it could also have been to show up the "I wont lift weights brigade". Have you ever heard the awe/respect in Livos voice when he was speaking of Martyn? Cant hear hear that in his tones when speaking of Whitnall or Campo can you?

He bought in some other fringe players aka Scotland etc because we needed bigger bodies and some experience. They have served a purpose Id bet my last dollar that Scotland, Bowyer etc are showing the way in game preparation things. BEcause what our players all lack is mental steel..[color=darkred]None of our boys are strong in the mental area thats our biggest downfall.[/color]

As far as Walker begin behind in other players in development hmm could injuries have a part in that? Nah prolly not according to you. Some people are slower to develop and play to their potential aka FFRENCH.

Pagan has recruited and in some cases inherited a fair spine in the likes of Tbird. Livo, Fev. Stevens, Walker, Carrazzo, Betts, Bryan/Blackwell/OHailpin's (seems like they is gonna be the goods). We are not that far off a good side we need the priority picks and a good uncontracted player and we will be 2 pages ahead of where we are now. This club is not in a situation where it can be fixed over nite things will take time a few will be thrown to the gutter in the change of the guard.

Players will not be the only ones under scrutiny here the trainin and recruitment staff are also under the pump.

As for Fevola :roll: his eyes dont you :roll: towards your wife/boss/ lover or whatevah you have? Human nature to do that occasionally I would suspect that Fev has utmost respect for his coach after all he would be on the football scrap heap if he didnt.

Our players need to work on mental/physical abilities and stenghten their resolves. Our playin list requires adjustment and improvement not hard to see that at all. This has been a ongoing problem since 1995 and has now got to explosion point the do or die stage. Unfortunately some of us dont have beleive and others do. I believe in Pagan and he may not be the one to take us to a flag he will steer us in the correct direction.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:47 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Sydney Blue wrote:
[

Maclean - Sylvia and Cooney are all far more advanced than Walker. Even Delidio taken a year later is showing more.



You must have been up in the Dandenongs today... treasure hunting for mushrooms...Did you at least have 3 AW on the radio and listen to Sylvia and McLean just absolutey star today????....

Just absolutely took the game by the balls and squeeze!!!!!! those two guys did today.....

Anyway one got 2/10 and the other got 3/10 for their games...

Youre only as good as your last game and Walker kicked the shit out of both of them....!!!!!!!! :wink:

What you dont understand is that kids are inconsistent... Walkers best so far has been better than McLeans and Sylvias... as a matter of fact i reckon Sylvia has done sweet fu.ck all...in the 18 months hes been an AFL player......!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:18 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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Anyone who happens to bag Andrew Walker is a complete w--ker!

The kid along with fisher, waitey, t-bird and co will be a major part of carlton success in the future.

Yes, I guess I love AW! :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:46 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:26 pm
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Let's see how Deledio goes in his 2nd year, let's see how they all go after 2 years, who knows, they may have a bad 2nd year and then what do you say?

You can't judge a kid on what he does in one year. Players like Judd are rare. Luke Hodge has taken 3 years to hit his straps but he can play, of that there is no doubt. Waite was taken in the same draft as Hodge and Luke Ball. Ball didn't play a game in his first year.

Would you call their progress very slow? :roll:

Thornton played 12 games in his first year coming off the rookie list which meant that he couldn't play unless someone was injured. He took his chance and has been in the starting side since 2003 as first choice key defender.

Look more broadly Sydney, and you might see that your expectations are unrealistic.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:50 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Fevola has the potential to be a 80+ a year goal kicker he will be lucky to get 60 this year - performing well below his capabilities
Houlihan - was a better player 3 years ago


Revisionist history is good, so I'll remind you that Fev and Houlihan were at the crossroads before Pagan arrived. It's no secret that the team is underperforming at the moment, but to suggest all our players with the exception of Carazzo have "gone backwards" under Denis' tenure is grossly inaccurate IMO.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:08 am 
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Rod Ashman

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interesting debate. I agree with Elwood and others, our list is suffering from abysmal recruiting and trading over the last ten years (we have been awful at drafting since it was introduced). Although I would have thought DP would have had a good idea of where we were at. We won the spoon the season before he came on, and most of our good players were ageing and injury ridden. I think in his first year DP was admirable in preaching about not looking in the rearview mirror. Now though he seems far too ready to blame draft penalties. The penalties are hurting us a bit now but not big time. We should have Wells Goddrad Tenace and a few lesser picks. Wells is a gun but might struggle at this stage in a crap side and the other two are okay. The penalties will really affect us in a few years when we might be a few players from the finals or beyond that a few players from a flag. At the moment DP knows our problems are from the late 90s and he should stop always making excuses.

I liked his positive comments after the last few games. No use bagging guys for lack of ability, get into them for lack of effort.

Re leaders, abviously our lack is a legacy of bad draft decisions that have left us with few players between 23-28. I think Kouta has been outstanding as an on field leader this year. He doesn't have the luxury of either a good team or being able to be rested like Vossy and yet I think he has led from the front. We lack leaders, but we're not the only club who has faced that and I presume DP is developing leaders at present. If Kouta retired tomorrow, I'd make Barney captain for a few years, hopeully T Bird will have developed in that time and has got over his current penchant for screaming at team mates every time his opponent gets it.

I think a lot of our younger players have stalled and DP must take some responsibility for that. Also he seems to be very rigid and lack imagination. We never seemto have set plays or surprise or outsmart the oppo. He needs someone else on staff too. A young, bright, ambitious lateral thinking assistant to develop strategies etc. i don't like Sheedy but part of his success is built on being positive and communicating that to the group and getting sharp assistants to develop strategies he can take credit for (Like Neal Daniher in 93).

DP and the club have a hard road to hoe. We can't keep sacking 20 playesr a year, and our list is no good. But we have a core of young players and the capacity of DP to develop these players as a unit and get and develop good talent thru the draft will be his legacy as much as what he did at North. I doubt he'll still be there when we challenge next for a flag, but he has 3 more years to turn us into a team. I hope for the rest of the year he tries things. Put Prenda at CHF and tell him to present, compete, present compete and again. Try and isolate Red one out near goals. Throw Livo up forward sometimes. May not work but who cares. maybe he'll get a few kicks, get a goal, feel good about himself.

re rejects - DP had no choice. Remember we weren't allowed to trade for high picks either and Bannister was top 10 in b&f last year McGrath has been serviceable. Bowyer (who is only 22) and Clarke set a great example in the 2s. Scotland has talent but has gone backwards this year. DPs challenge is to get all the list to play at their best, whatever that is, and at present that's not happening.

In terms of leaders, DP is our primary leader, he has to take the presure, develop confidence in the group, turn them into a team. Tough job, but that's why he's on a big contract.

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Quote:
so I'll remind you that Fev and Houlihan were at the crossroads before Pagan arrived.
I think they may have turned the car around CB and arrived back at those damned crossroads


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:06 pm 
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Robert Walls
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[quote="camelboy]
Revisionist history is good, so I'll remind you that Fev and Houlihan were at the crossroads before Pagan arrived. It's no secret that the team is underperforming at the moment, but to suggest all our players with the exception of Carazzo have "gone backwards" under Denis' tenure is grossly inaccurate IMO.[/quote]

Absolutely spot on Camel - just on the Fevola "body language". Jeez that pissed me off. You could turn the camera on any player and find them not watching the coach right there and then. Walls has an agenda - he wants us to trade Brendan and so he picks on anything he can find to support his case.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:08 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Sydney Blue wrote:
camelboy wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
The biggest problem I see is that there is no improvement. I grant you that the list is shit but why are they not improving. blokes like wiggens ,sporn and Livo were all top 20 in 2000 and they have not improve one bit under Pagan . You can go through the entire playing list and with the exception of maybe Carazzo every player is playing below what you would expect them to be. Nearly every player that was given a second chance and showed some sort of form last year this year after two years of Pagans coaching they have gone backwards. no one can argue this fact and no one can point to one player in the side who is playing above what you would expect . I think that Pagan is using the draft penalties as an excuse and ther should be no reason what so ever that professional full time footballers with their careers on the line can't show improvement. It is no coincedence that this form slump coencided with Pagan signing on for another 3 years



Fevola.
Houlihan.
Waite.
Thornton.
Walker.



Fevola has the potential to be a 80+ a year goal kicker he will be lucky to get 60 this year - performing well below his capabilities
Houlihan - was a better player 3 years ago
Waite - very very slow in developing should be taking games apart by now
Thorton - No better that what he was 3 years ago
Walker- when you look at others drafted at the same time as him he is developing the slowest of the lot

Nearly every single player on the list is under performing . WHY?????

Stick to league Sydney Blue - You know nothing about AFL

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:12 pm 
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John Nicholls

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The players who are developing well from the 2003 draft are...

1. Cooney
2. McLean
3. Bradley
4. Walker
5. Tenace
6. Clarke

Walker has stepped up a lot in the last 3 weeks and is starting to display those flashes of brilliance that will make him an abolsute gun in years to come.

It's all about patience.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:18 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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by the end of their careers

Walker will be the best of the lot

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:20 pm 
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John Nicholls

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ThePrez wrote:
by the end of their careers

Walker will be the best of the lot


I agree.

I look at it this way....

Cooney is going to be the better player in the short term.
Walker will be the player in the long term.

Same goes with the Goddard vs. Wells debate.
Wells will be the better player in the short term.
Goddard will be the better player in the long term.

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