No wonder they're not keen to hang around!

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Patrick Smith - Just another reason to HATE Essendon*!

maybe the player has said that pagan has lost the playing goup, but big deal!
it's probably just his opinion, and after 6 straight losses, pagan has probably lost the playing group to a certian extent, it's no secret, it's plain for all to see week after week of inept performances.

storm in a tea cup!

the player wanting out is a little bit of a worry, but the club has been and always will be bigger than then individual.

if someone doesnt want to do the team things then they can leave, but i can understand why they would get frustrated, and be seeking further oppotunities.

i cant really see it being a huge loss, thorton is blue to the bone, watie is playing well, walker improving and getting more responsibility everyweek, outside of these guys any loss probably isn't going to hurt too much. although i'd be dissapointed if anyone felt this way and decided to leave.

Walker is still uncontracted for next year.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Its cool i understand what you are saying. My interpretation however is based on someone wanting to play a certain position and not being given that role and spitting the dummy. That to me is not "team player".

If this young gun is upset because he is given a different role to play to that, that he would prefer there lies the problem. Unfortunately we sometimes need to do things in a team that benefit team balance and being a young gun you should take these challenges ( roles) on board as part of your all round development.

An example i'll use is Waite, how he was the only player on the list not to get a senior game. He would of been spewing (i was at the time) , but in essence the club had bigger things lined up for him ( as we can see ). Maybe the same thing could be said about this individual. No point worrying about it, not yet anyway. Lets get rid of the dead wood first, and then watch how things pan out.

Cheers mate !

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

Softcockness Synbad??

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I stole Sheedy's Gatorade...

Been telling you for weeks, Pagan has lost the players (AGAIN), the place is falling apart and every-one is turning a blind eye.

Doesn't help when our President publicly calls the players crap.

I could imagine that would do wonders for the morale around the place - not. Even if it is true, it is not something you want your president - your leader - the person who is suposed to be the one setting the tone, the culture and the standard of the club - saying.

Sorry Collo, you were the man for the moment, you have been great in getting the finances back on track, but you are not the leader we need now - time to go.

How is it not fair to say 'we lack talent' when we're sitting in bottom spot and have won about 25% of our last 70 games? Surely he's just being honest - anything else is just spin and a waste of everyone's time.

The sooner we get past our salary cap constraints - and yes you too Kouta - the better for all of us. It's just too hard to be on the same playing field with all of our ridiculous contracting decisions from the past.

As for losing the players, hopefully most of them do get lost.
It's easier to list those you would want to keep than go and that won't take long in fact with the right deal everyone is either past it or gunna be it, --no one is it.
If the "young player" is Walker good bye and good luck, we'll have Mclean or Sylvia or any of their good young players thanks.
Sad but a fact of life when things get tough, overpaid prima donnas struggle.
Collo and Pagan are right to judge them harshly, they are crap and need to align their performances to their pay packets and maybe we won't need to sell $300 raffle tickets.

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Green Shooter

We can't get rid of all of them. Pagan has already got rid of a large number since he started. How many more can he get rid of?

15 more

No point keeping rubbish

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Stay tuned We're in for a BUMPY ride

now that i think is about spot on the mark.

and IMO Pagan as well as the match commitee has alot to answer for it. There was just no justification to drop Livo & Teague (teague has struggled this year) last week, just using them as an example, when he was far from our worst.

Scotland & Campo would have been better to drop than Livo & Teague and Chambers and Simpson would have provided the same if not more (expecially in the case of simpson who had a good game) than Scotland and Campo.

Why do certain players continue to get a run and those performing in the Ants arent getting a run a.k.a. Jorden Russell.

Lack of action from the coach and match committee has probably been the most frustrating part about this year IMO. Kouta (clearly he is injured), Campo, Scotland, Stevens (clearly injured as well) still get games even though they should be dropped, yet you have poost batards busting a gut to do everything that is asked of them, yet dont get anything in return.

I dont blame the players at all for feeling disenchanted by it all.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

IF i where one of the younger players i would be more disenchanted with the senior players getting paid 33% of the cap for 10% output.

Lets face it we dont have a Jono Brown or Judd or Tredrea or even sticks that people look up to and say i am glad he is on our side he is worth everything he is worth. None of our senior players command that respect .. not even Kouta now though he did in his prime.

So if i was one of the younger established players i would be more pissed with the Senior players and what they are getting paid relative to the way they are playing which is pretty average and lacks leadership

ANd if I were a smart younger player I'd realise that if I kept my spot in the 1's and kept performing alot of that pie could come my way!

Agree with Wolfe here. And the senior players might even say to them, they've offered me less money next year, you'll probably get less too.

Quite frankly though, I am disappointed that Pagan hasn't dropped Camporeale in particular through his antics and with injury, and Stevens and Kouta with injury

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Here's a speculative analysis.

Carlton win the Wiz Cup. It is a boon for sponsorship and membership, and the Board is very happy with that. It also gives much needed joy to players and supporters.

Then Collo meets with Pagan to discuss a new contract. Something tells me that neither Pagan nor Collo are the types who would be carried away with emotions. Both are hard-headed men who have the experience to dissect the state of the club's list precisely and unemotionally.

Let's take a leap of faith here. Let's assume that the meeting that concludes with a new 3 year deal for Pagan was not a kneejerk reaction to winning the lowly Wizard Cup. Could the hard heads have decided that the team was travelling well but was not likely to be able to compete for a premiership in the foreseeable future? Could the meeting have resolved that Pagan should enter a process of substantial rebuilding? If this was on the table, you would expect that Pagan would make the point that it was desirable that he be signed on a long-term contract before the season started because:

1. If he did as asked, and his contract was up at the end of the season, disaffected people including players could try to tear him down.
2. He would be worried that a political hardhead like Collo might take advantage of that dissent and his consequentially lessened market value to either jettison him altogether or screw him down on terms.
3. Without a long-term deal, his authority would be undermined which would be bad for the club.

Does anyone really think that Collo was stampeded into making a premature decision on Pagan's future?

Now if my analysis is correct, you would have to say that those who are dissenters should read the writing on the wall and understand that Pagan can't be undermined successfully. At the end of the year, I would expect that Pagan and the Football Department generally would be mending bridges with the players that they want to keep. Part of this will be painting a picture of the new players, both experienced star recruits and new talent, the club will be able to bring in and how this will affect the style of game that we will play. I would think that another 2 months of disillusionment would not be irreversible.

I'm with the Prez on this one....some baffling coach and MC decisions have left me feeling a tad uneasy about what plans if any we do have.......Livo while not exactly in red hot form should have been perservered with for the future and to make our mind up on where he is at...yet Stevens is playing poorly with injury isnt being rested and Campo is also meant to be carrying injuries....Stevens is a valuable player why play him injured?

Why wasnt Russell taken to Darwin for a hitout and Stevens rested...
Blackwell should get a trip to WA..even its just for 10 minutes game time and to see the folks...what harm can it do..

I dont know all the behind scenes stuff with disenchanted players etc but there a few disenchanted supporters looking for some answers....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Maybe DP has realised that some of his senoir players were trying to undermine him again and maybe he thought that if he dropped or reprimanded the players that it would escalate and he would loose control like 2003. It seems unusal for a Pagan coach side to play with the lack of discipline that has been shown recently and for Pagan not to act on it. He might be just biding his time. But it is a fine line he is walking if this is the case as it could all blow up in his face if he removes the person or persons he thinks are the culprits and it turns out that they are only pawns for someone else. Next 8-9 weeks will tell the story

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Mav.....
add...
Send a message out that we are crap, the loss of draft picks really hurt, we know where we are, we awill be reviewing contcats , sticking to our policies etc.....and it really seems your write up is close to the bone.
Add this!
Year one for Pagan and Collo......they have PP2 and PSD2.....BUT these give fantastic leverage in trade negotiations and basically allow them to land all the trades they want plus Walker plus Stevens.

Year two....Back in the draft and have all the picks (but we finished tenth) Pagan and Collo had enthusiasm about a bunch of trades and I think they were sure they could do them, - they've gone for all of the trades (and we knew about a few of them) and NONE have come off. Pagan and Collo are Pi$$ed off.

Experience tells you a few things but this would have been a rude awakening.
The lesson is learnt....not only that we need to get talent but we need to be in a strong position to negotiate on it....

Thus...

Contract comments, Salary cap comments, Talent comments....next will be draft picks won't get traded....BUT only for talent...and the hard nosed negotiation will start.


are we tanking? You bet!... Pagan's aim is to
a) develop players that will be there next year - thus "teaching" Walker
b) allow the NBullants to get a bit of a team winning culture..therfore not playing any recruits (inc. Bryan) till he HAD to (and granted Hartlett was injured) - wouldn't be surprised to NOT see the VFL boys come into the seniors PARTICULALRY if NB are doing well
c) giving the recycled every opportunity to prove themsleves in the seniors...and not be dropped (increase trade value, opportunity to prove worth)

In fact...as a player...if you are being dropped back to the VFL to find form, I think you actually may feel safer (or that the coach is looking after you ) as opposed to being in the seniors when you are obviously out of form.

M2C

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

Mav you disappoint me. You let intelligent thought and well-contracted arguments get in the way of emotion and knee-jerk reaction.
That’s just not good enough.