You've just exposed how weak your argument is Sydney.

This has nothing to do with PPs. This is about the picks that were rightfully ours in the 2002 and 2003 drafts and the effects of missing out on those picks. Only Goddard was a PP in that lot.

If you're going to argue a case please use your brain a little more regularly.

I'm not one who thinks Pagan's the messiah and he does some things that make me shake my head. (Have we ever had a coach that didn't leave us wondering at times?) I'm not backing him because of who he is but because of what we've given him.

My problem is that I don't think we should judge the guy until he's had the same opportunity to craft a list and a team as any other coach who inherits a seriously struggling team.

If we'd had all those picks and were still where we're at right now I'd be seriously questioning whether he's got what it takes to coach at our club but the reality is he hasn't had those picks and to judge him based on his inability to meld a bunch of draft scraps into the next Brisbane Lions c.2001-2003 is absurd.

And yet some people think he's had ample time and opportunity to do so.

It's like asking a boxer to tie one hand behing his back and win the world championship.

Give Denis both hands and let him swing them around for 2-3 years and we'll see what happens.

My arguement is not weak GWS both Sydney and Adelaide were both tipped as potential wooden spooners at the start of the year due to their refusal to lie down and get draft picks. Sydney even traded their first pick for Jolly . They are in the position they are because they are better coached - they have kept the same core group together and they play as a team and they do not chop and change or get rid of players willy nilly just because they may not agree with the coach. Pagan when he arrived at the club had the players at his disposal to feild a competivie team - he chose to piss them all off in spite of the fact that he knew we were severely hamstrung by draft penalties. He has built a game Plan around Bozo the clown and is just now publicly stating he has a different view on football to him. Wrong calls made all over the place .

and another main factor is they have a significant home ground advantage- but we chose to get rid of ours but that is another arguement.

when we are challeging for a flag tell me my arguement is weak

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

If you think that none of the players on that list would make one bit of difference to the way we play you are kidding yourself.

Not only that, but the future impact of not having them will be felt for a long long time. Because in a couple years time, when we are thereabouts, we are going to look back to those penalties, and think "if we had Wells, Moloney, Goddard (fill in any name you like here)", we could have pulled this off. But we won't have them and we won't have pulled it off.

If the AFL thought we would be in a position to challenge for the 8 within a couple years, they would have made the penalties even harsher. The penalties were designed to set us back several years - and that is what they have done.

Anyone who doesn't see that just simply doesn't get it.

But none of that matters to you Sydney because you have said it yourself that you blame Pagan because it's "easier" to do that than to blame anyone else. You also said Pagan should be held accountable for not finding a way to pick up Tambling and Deledio in the rookie draft last year - which really, is just laughable.

I'm glad the Pagan knockers are in the minority here.

I had to put up with an Ess supporter at work this morning making jibes about the guy (within 5 min of me getting to work ) & that was bad enough. But other Carlton supporters??? You should know our side well enough to know it's not DP to blame.

And with the Mick Martyn thing, I must confess I did cringe a bit when we selected him - but don't forget, it was with pick 70 or so. Tbird & Livo were 3 years younger then & there was no Teague in defense for us. Looking back on it I can see there was some method to the madness you're trying to show. I really don't think as a new coach his priority would have been to get Mickey Martyn to 300 games.

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#DonTheStash

CK95 wrote

You're kidding right. How many games did the gorilla happen to play? Was it 300 exactly? Then he retired. Manton was a far better option that year but Pagan didn't like him.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

I actually thought Manton wasn't playing all that badly in 03 too.

But I still don't think Pagan just played Martyn to get him to 300.

Anyways, that's all academic now.

_________________
#DonTheStash

If you seriously believe that our list is anywhere near the quality of Sydney or Adelaide's then you're more deluded than I thought.

Of those players who left Carlton since Pagan arrived which ones are now playing good football somewhere else?

Ratten? McKay? Bradley? Manton? None of them would be playing today whether Pagan was there or not.

McKernan? Allan? Murphy? Beaumont? Fletcher? The reason those guys are gone is because they no longer had anything to offer as has been proven by their lack of success at new clubs.

You wonder why your argument is weak?

Yes - Sydney traded their pick for Jolly. BECAUSE THEY HAD THAT PICK! Which bit of this don't you understand? How does this justify them being "better coached". You're arguing for me now.

We didn't have picks that we could use/trade whatever. We weren't even allowed to trade players for picks in the first two rounds.

That's why we have such an inferior list.

Oh, and please remind me again how many games we won at home in 2002?

Just in case you can't work it out - that was the year before Pagan came to Carlton.

We won three games that year.

Two at the MCG and one at Docklands.

Both of which are our new home grounds.

What did we win at Optus Oval?

Nothing at all.

It's just so difficult to construct any sort of argument on the effects of the penalties without a lot of assumption, which isn't really a strong platform for any argument. Football is just too unpredictible, not the least because there is an opposition out there who want to beat the hell out of you.

The whole penalty saga has hurt us no matter what...now and into the future. We may actually be a stronger side right now with Teague and Scotland etc at the club, but we are poorer for it by losing high picks in 2002. 2003 is all guess work, but we lost Goddard and Wells 2002, no guessing there.

I don't understand why we lost the PP in 2002 but not in 2003?

I always assumed it was just a case of a "total penalty" and as the commission wasn't to know whether we'd qualify for one in 2003 it set a penalty that would be fixed.

That is, if we'd missed out on qualifying for a Priority Pick in 2003 then the penalty would have been different than if we had which doesn't make much sense. Whereas we lost our PP in 2002 because the commision knew it existed at the time the penalties were handed out.

On the penalties I have also stated if you had allowed Elliot to defend the accusations that were levelled at him we may not be in this prediciment.

As for you other stupid comment didn't we select Raso last year because he was going top 5 this year- We could have done that with others and what would have been wrong with drafting Josh Drummond instead of allowing him to sit on Brisbane Rookie list for two years.

Anyway none of this matters who we could have got and who we couldn't the fact still remains that we have gone 15- 11 -16 under Pagan . does a supposed financially strapped club need to spend $800k a year for those results and the answer is no . He has proven that he has difficulty developing younger players and this shine through with Sporn Wiggins and Livo all top twenty players. He has limited success with Fevola and Houlihan but they are now worse than ever and should have been traded . Waite is now 22 and only just showing glimpses of what he is capable of Simpson and Bentick were playing for their footballing future and it is only a couple of months back people were calling for their heads.


The guy is a dud and we should get rid of him now.

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Sydney Blue - you are a genius.

I bow down to you.

I cannot argue any further.

You are right.

There's no other way about it.

You are absolutely right.

Why be rational when you don't have to?

You win.

I'd love to continue but I must retire to the salon to pick my nose.

SydneyBlue wrote....

"Pagan when he arrived at the club had the players at his disposal to feild a competivie team - he chose to piss them all off in spite of the fact that he knew we were severely hamstrung by draft penalties"

You are kidding us are'nt you???

Here is the list that Pagan inherited at the end of 2002..WITHOUT the benefit of draft picks

Allan...Injury problems and loss of form
Beasy...Did'nt cut it and is now struggling at Bendigo
Beaumont...Finished when he went to the Hawks.Struggling and only 29 now.
Bradley....was 38
Bray....who?
Campbell....No good
Camporeale..
Christou...Struggled with injury and form...finished
Cranage...no good
Davies...
Davis....No good
Doering....Good VFL footballer
Eccles...no good
Fletcher....no good
Fevola.....
Franchina...Was struggling
Freeborn...Just!
Gallagher....who
Hickmott...finished...was about to turn 31
Hotton...Was 29 and struggling.
Houlahan...
Hulme...Given plenty of chances
Kouta.....Crippled with injury
Lappin...
Livingston.....Still has'nt made it!
Mansfield...Too old Too slow
Manton....Nearing the end
Mathews....did'nt make it
McKay....Great but was 32!
McKernan....Nuff said!
Merrington...Did'nt cut it!
Murphy....Struggling at Essendon*
O.Keefe....Playing at Sandy
Pickering....Got sacked at Richmond
Plunkett....not good enough
Prendergast....A Pagan favourite who still cannot get a game!
Ratten....Great,but was 31
Smith....who
Sporn....Still struggling
Thornton...
Waite......
Whitnall....
Wiggins....Still struggling

Theres your"Competitive" list at the end of 2002 SydneyBlue!!!!!

No picks to speak of coming up!!!

This was the legacy that Elliot left!!!....Perhaps why it was that the "ferals" in your words voted them out!

Care to rethink your "competive list"???????

Interesting that the ones who left with the exception of Pickering were not picked up???

You should really think before you make sweeping statements!


.

Mine is a reason - yours is a cop out the loss of draft penalities is an excuse . The players do not want to play under this coach end of story - two clean outs in three years with another to come this year . It wont be long before the penny drops

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

By the way care to select us a Competitve team for the first round of 2003 based on the list supplied???

Which players don't want to play under this coach?

If they have'nt for several seasons liked it why have'nt they moved on?

I'll tell you why....Because they are not good enough...Nobody wants them!

Tell us what the leaving disenters are doing...I'll tell you.....They are all playing in the VFL if they are lucky!

That list of players won more games in 2003 than we have this year and the majority of them took us to the finals in 2001

Allan - had a good year last year as did Murphy
Beaumont - disappointing this year but last year took more marks than any Carlton Player and would have been more valuable than clarke
Mckernan won our best and fairest in 2002 and would have been a better option than Mott.
Franchina was a tagger and better at it than Bannister or sporn
Hulme was good at in and under and better than johnston
Beasy wasn't given a go
McCormick wasnt that bad and probably better than Scotland
Doering is carving up the VFL
Davies showed promise but like many others like sporn - wiggins - livo- houlihan has gone no where .

And if the draft and the playing list is the only excuse you have for Pagan tell me why we didn't finish last - last year

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

ha ha ha this is hilarious. I haven't seen better straw clutching for ages.

What stupid comment is that SB? You think because we picked Raso up last year we should have been able to do that with Tambling and Deledio. There's this thing called a minimum age for the draft. Tambling and Deledio were never in a draft prior to last year because they were too young, so how could Pagan pick them up??? Was he meant to wave his wand and make it all happen. Don't accuse me of making stupid comments, I'm not the one who doesn't have an understanding of how the system works.

But seeing as you like to work in hindsight, I will tell you who was available the previous year. McQualter - that's right, McQualter was. And St Kilda picked him up in the first round I believe. But he was overlooked by 16 other clubs the year before. Even your precious Sydney and Adelaide, I know you find that hard to believe seeing as they are the the standard setters in drafting. And don't you think credit should be given where it's due for Carlton being the only team to learn from that and draft a young Raso this year.

And as for your statement about Waite. How long do you think it usually takes a guy of his size to make an impact in the AFL??? His development is right on track I would have thought. He is one of the shining lights this year - for a team with no leadership, it is amazing Waite has developed at all. And if Pagan hadn't arrived at the club, Jarrad Waite would not even be playing!!! Were you aware of that? That's right, your golden coach Brittain was going to delist him - he was too busy talking up the Cranage's, the Smith's, the Eccle's, the Doering's of the world - do you remember those guys????

And you think Pagan should be blamed for Livingston, Sporn and Wiggins development??? Are you kidding???? Are you watching the same players I'm watching??? As great as those guys are and try as they might, the questions should be asked of why they were drafted in the first place. You love working in hindsight - go look at the players that were drafted AFTER these guys. How the hell is that Pagan's fault?

And as for Simpson and Bentick - you are kidding yourself there as well. Simpson is in his third year in the AFL. If you think his development is slow you have no idea. And as for Bentick, he was a rookie - don't you think some credit needs to be given for us picking him up in the first place.

As for Fevola - you are kidding yourself if you think he is worse off now that he was when Pagan arrived.

The only one you have half right is Houla - but he was going to be delisted so anything we get out of him from this point on is a bonus.

You really have no idea whatsoever.