Blues ordered Pagan to recruit youth 'too late'

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18082

sinbagger wrote:

What's wrong is if they think the coach is such an idiot that the board has to tell him how to do his job then why bother keeping him? Why tell everyone publicly that our coach does not know what he's doing then put him charge of the team for the next couple of years?

No, he's admitting that the board have made mistakes and so has the coach.

Unless they make honest assessments of their performance, nothing will change.
I'd prefer Smorgon to admit mistakes have been made and this is what we are doing to rectify it.
Embrace the honesty. :wink:

I'm not saying Smorgon is a good President. Most posters will know that I've been as critical of the board as anyone. But it's easier to keep them honest if they're keeping us informed.

sinbagger · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:24 pm

Blue Vain wrote:

sinbagger wrote:

What's wrong is if they think the coach is such an idiot that the board has to tell him how to do his job then why bother keeping him? Why tell everyone publicly that our coach does not know what he's doing then put him charge of the team for the next couple of years?

No, he's admitting that the board have made mistakes and so has the coach.

Unless they make honest assessments of their performance, nothing will change.
I'd prefer Smorgon to admit mistakes have been made and this is what we are doing to rectify it.
Embrace the honesty. :wink:

In that why didn't he say something like "We at Carlton have decided to adopt a youth approach to team selection"?

Fingerpointing helps no-one

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:24 pm

Time to appoint another Tyrant to the presidency??? :wink:

The Old Dark Navy's · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:58 pm **Posts:** 211

I'm agreeing with Synbad here. Smorgon had a chance to praise the future rather than disassociate himself from the past.

What are his qualifications for rebuilding a football side? What would he have done with late draft picks. How many chances would he give young players to perform and how much form would they have to show before he selected them in the side?

The club wanted to win and Pagan selected his side accordingly. Now knowing that they can't count on wins, they have turned their attention to the next best thing for supporters, giving them something to get excited about in terms of potential new talent. Now we have a mandate to pick young players and the result is incidental.

The board can take no credit for our onfield direction IMO. They simply are not qualified, aside from Sticks.

Smorgon just earned a big red cross in my book and I hope he can turn it around from here.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:42 pm

well, sadly, I must agree with BV - anymore shadow jumping and we'll all end up in Never Never Land (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a mixing of metaphors!).

camel · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:47 pm

Blue Vain wrote:

Quote:

Smorgon said that ordering Pagan to stick to a youth policy had probably come two years too late. Chief executive Michael Malouf also confirmed that Pagan's new deal involved a "significant paycut".

Smorgon said that while Pagan fought successfully to retain all of his assistant coaches, he was told in return to hand over more responsibility to those assistants and to rebuild the club by blooding young players "or the club will die".

"We gave Denis very clear guidelines that we have to rebuild this club or the club will die," Smorgon said.

"We had to adopt a youth policy and we probably should have done so earlier. We inherited (the coach) in a sense but we did re-sign him for another three-year term.

"My experience with Denis is he's very good with young players. He's changed his style to a more managerial hands-off role empowering his assistant coaches to do more, which has been effective."

What's wrong with any of this?

We did adopt a youth policy and we should have done so earlier.
Pagan did have to change his style and should have done so earlier.
They are admitting that the Board is at fault for not enforcing this earlier.

It's better than Smorgon standing up and telling us life is rosy and no mistakes have been made.
The board have made some screw ups, the coaches have made plenty but hopefully we are heading in the right direction.

Honest appraisals and good hard looks in the mirror were well overdue all round.

The biggest mistake this board have made is having no faith in the supporters.
If the board are honest, transparent and not negotiable in rebuilding the club, the supporters will stick with them.
We'll soon see how much courage Smorgon has. Being a good president isnt about being popular, it's about going in one direction and having the leadership skills to take everyone with you.

Well summed up BV, And agree completely about the board having more faith in the fans.

CK95 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:52 pm

sinbagger wrote:

In that why didn't he say something like "We at Carlton have decided to adopt a youth approach to team selection"?

Because he wasn't reading out a prepared speech word by word?

CarltonClem · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:58 pm

Yeah, gotta agree with BV here.

If you can't take honest criticism and self-appraisal, you're GAWN in the corporate world.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18082

The Old Dark Navy's wrote:

The club wanted to win and Pagan selected his side accordingly. Now knowing that they can't count on wins, they have turned their attention to the next best thing for supporters, giving them something to get excited about in terms of potential new talent. Now we have a mandate to pick young players and the result is incidental.

Absolute nonsense.

The club had a mandate to rebuild the day Pagan walked in the door.
The supporters would have happily stuck with the club had we been not negotiable in our youth policy.
We dont all live and die on wins, supporters are happy with hope and a consistent vision for a future.

But it has to be consistent.

McKaysMistress · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:14 pm **Posts:** 217

I don't have too much of an issue with what Smorgon had to say - he's admitting what we all knew and alot of us feared well until the end of the year - that we adopted a youth policy too late. It's a bit hard for the coach to go down that path if he doesn't have the full support of the board, and Smorgon is admitting our board fought against going all out youth for too long.

My biggest issue with that article is the Lorraine Diggins revelation - if it is true (and Caro is usually spot on with her Carlton info, so I find no reason to doubt the validity) then if that is her biggest concern as a board member, she should just resign right now. That is just trivial and ridiculous.

Personally as a female, it was disappointing to read. We need a female that contributes to the board, not one that merely holds up the perception that many men have about women and football.

The Old Dark Navy's · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:58 pm **Posts:** 211

Blue Vain wrote:

Absolute nonsense.

The club had a mandate to rebuild the day Pagan walked in the door.
The supporters would have happily stuck with the club had we been not negotiable in our youth policy.
We dont all live and die on wins, supporters are happy with hope and a consistent vision for a future.

But it has to be consistent.

Nice selection from a longer post there. Care to explain what the board know about building a team without draft picks and when and how to introduce young players into a team?

He is effectively saying that Pagan had to be told how to do his job. The reality is Pagan had to be told how to do his job, not for better results, but to cater for the clubs off field predicament and its desire to serve up something for the impatient masses.

FWIW, I am all for seeing more young players out on the field but the fact is that it wasn't that long ago, Simpson, Bentick and Walker were not automatic selections so bringing on more players was fraught with danger.

CK95 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:11 pm

Good post Mckay's Mistress. Agree with everything you said about Smorgon.

Synbad · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:13 pm

Sorry.. the board directed Pagan to win games because the lunches were down and whatever.

They didnt come out and give us a plan on why we should go to these lunches and that it will take time.

Up to mid last year.. im talking StKilda game a couple of the directors thought we were top 8 material.

Lala land....

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18082

The Old Dark Navy's wrote:

Nice selection from a longer post there. Care to explain what the board know about building a team without draft picks and when and how to introduce young players into a team?

He is effectively saying that Pagan had to be told how to do his job. The reality is Pagan had to be told how to do his job, not for better results, but to cater for the clubs off field predicament and its desire to serve up something for the impatient masses.

The board dont have to know anything about building a team.
They are there to set policy and club direction.
If they decide they want to rebuild with youth, that's it.
I dont understand what your point is.

Are you suggesting Pagan drafted recycled players because the board instructed him to?

Or are you suggesting he had to because the kids were'nt ready?

Or did Pagan recycle players because he wanted "strong bodies" to play "direct, efficient , collision" football?

bluechucky · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:29 am **Posts:** 13689

McKaysMistress wrote:

My biggest issue with that article is the Lorraine Diggins revelation - if it is true (and Caro is usually spot on with her Carlton info, so I find no reason to doubt the validity) then if that is her biggest concern as a board member, she should just resign right now. That is just trivial and ridiculous.

Ah, not sure if the online article has been updated, but there is no comment about Lorraine Diggins that I can see (or maybe I'm just blind)

What was it?

Lurker Blue · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:57 pm

bluechucky wrote:

Ah, not sure if the online article has been updated, but there is no comment about Lorraine Diggins that I can see (or maybe I'm just blind)

Different article

http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/real ... 20270.html

Bosustow · **Joined:** Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:59 pm **Posts:** 59

Barnesy wrote:

Right, Wrong or indifferent, at least Smorgan is making statements and perceptually we are hearing and seeing a vision / mission.

Eg-Zachary. Collo had no vision except to sell us off down the road, call our team second raters, and have no PLAYING plan for the future. Sure he cleared a little of debt to create MORE debt. Teams with big supporter bases do well when the team do well. Obviously Collo felt by branding us a team of second raters, rather than actively developing or, as a drongo accountant like him should know INVESTING in the long-term/future, a more essential vision for the club.

I think Smorgo's comment about Pagan were more directed in regards to improving on-field performance more than anything, becuase at the end of the day thats all that's gonna improve the bottom line, I mean winning games is pretty much the business, not being a Poof on the bloody footy show or some reality TV show. Once we start to string wins together, all the money will fall into place.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18082

Collo was an administrator Buzz but he was the man for the time.
He just didnt recognise or acknowledge his limitations.

But I cant believe he sold us out.
Collo put more time and effort in Carlton over the past 3 years than any of us would in our lifetime.
I can criticise some of his actions but his commitment, motives and love of Carlton were beyond questioning.

fevolaaaa · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:19 pm

McKaysMistress wrote:

My biggest issue with that article is the Lorraine Diggins revelation - if it is true (and Caro is usually spot on with her Carlton info, so I find no reason to doubt the validity) then if that is her biggest concern as a board member, she should just resign right now. That is just trivial and ridiculous.

Personally as a female, it was disappointing to read. We need a female that contributes to the board, not one that merely holds up the perception that many men have about women and football.

Agree, I can't see her getting my vote in future.

In regards to the article, I don't really understand the sentiment in this thread..to me he isn't bagging Pagan, moreso bagging the board for being too late with their directive. I don't particularly see anything wrong with it except it didn't really need to be said, it's in the past

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:21 pm

McKaysMistress wrote:

Personally as a female, it was disappointing to read.

Time to elect another Tyrant to the board, you reckon, McKaysMistress????

:wink:

Blues ordered Pagan to recruit youth 'too late'

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