Davies- Was brought back in round 22 and performed well enough to be retained. Does have talent and can do freakish things but will muck up the basics. Can be undsciplined (reported twice in VFL). Problems seem to be mainly above the shoulder. Hasn't made any real progress in last 2-3 years.

Sporn- has definitely gone backwards since 2003/04. Looked like he could tag players like Hird or play half back. Had a lot of injuries and seems to have lost pace and confidence. Is too in between- too small to play key position (?recruited in expectation would grow taller), too slow to play midfield, lacks confidence and fumbles.

Wiggins- Don't think he had much talent to start with and has never really improved. No idea why he was picked at 16 but other than being courageous and having a good attitude does not seem to be AFL standard and has never got any better.

Since leaving PA has decreased his efficiency but has increased his contested possessions and also handballs a lot more. Role has changed from being an outside player with plenty of support to more of an inside player with limited support so it's difficult to compare.

That's wrong all those above have done more then Davies,but have gone worse,If you look at Davies record each year he has improved,not a lot, but this year,could be his last as he has missed the first 5 games of the season, being reported last year and is on the injury list for a few weeks.

He probably won't get a game untill round 11,that's if he only does great in the VFL and we keep losing.

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Bang Bang.

I think the only way to answer your question is whether these players will be picked up by another club once they get the flick. An opposition coach or recruiting manager will recognise they have talent, will also recognise that Pagan could not develop them and back themselves to get the best out of them. If they don't get picked up by another club then perhaps it is a statement that they have gone as far as they can go.
In saying this I can't recall a player that Pagan has chopped who has improved at another club. Anyone care to jolt my memory?

Cam Mooney!

Considering that no one has mentioned that he got the Kangas to I don't know how many prelims and won two flags and also won several under 19 premierships with kids. Took over a team that could not play under Schimma and turned them into the most successful team of that era.

I mean't how many Carlton players has he let go that have bit him in the bum. If the perception amongst some very knowledgable posters is that he can't develop players surely an AFL coach has pounced on this and cashed in on his discards. It is not as if there has not been much to choose from.

As an aside what was the exchange for Cam Mooney? Was it Leigh Colbert? I think Kingsley was involved as well. Surely a win win if that is the case.

That was last century. Here, we've gone from last to last and looked nothing more than a rabble most times. Struggles to even get the respect of his players. The game's past him by. No Carey's in this team

Really? And how do you know this?

Was answering this ok not some ramblings about North. As far as North are concerned Pagan had a ready made team to take over when Schima got the boot after 1 bad game. I have no doubt that Schimmelbusch would have ended up with the same win% as Pagan if he had still been coach but yes who knows if he would have won flags.

Jim,

I agree, that is why Cam Mooney is irrelevant.
Some posters are saying he can't develop players. I reckon Denis has turned over close to 40 players since he has been at Carlton (plenty of under/non developed players to choose from). So which ones have the opposition clubs taken to develop themselves that have biten Denis on the bum? There must be one glaring mistake, can some one help me find it?

Scottopee it is late at night and you must be tired. Care to tell me who developed those ready made players? Most of the ready made players came through the North Melbourne under 19's. Do you know who the under 19 coach was at the Kangas at that time?
You brought up Cam Mooney from the Kangas not me.
Do you want a shovel now?

Thanks to you all for this thread.

I've been in since 7am and am now leaving work at about 11pm, and this thread has been my constant companion.....

I'm going to bed. Hopefully in the morning someone will give me a player that Pagan let go that we desparately want back at the club. I'll even cop Campo if it helps!
Oh by the way in a previous post I wanted the Tatts number for Saturday night. Haven't got those yet but if it helps I'll settle for tomorrow nights Powerball numbers, its worth 15 mill.

Mmm Carey Longmire Stevens all started playing seniors when 18. Carey & Longmire would have played stuff all 3rds Stevens don't know but he was a country boy so wouldn't think he played more then a season of 3rds. Yes Mick Martyn was a 3rds regular as a forward? did Pagan get it wrong!

As for the side
Matt Larkin
Paul Spargo
Alex Ishenko (spelling)
Ian Fairly
Richard Dennis
Darren Crocker
Craig Scholl
Peter German
Ross Smith
Anthony Rock
Brett Allison
Darren Steele
+ Carey Longmire Stevens and Martyn

that is as ready made side you would wish for.
Maybe he can lay claims to Scholl Crocker Allison and Rock the rest were from other clubs or started in the early 80's.

So you can guess what you can do with your shovel hero.

Did Corey McKernan want to play football or golf? Hows Glenn Archer going in all of this? Care to expand on the Grant v Schwass trade?
Anyway it is not relevant to the topic.
Some people say he can't develop players, some people say he can, some people say he can coach, some people say he can't.
What I can tell you is the bloke has a 3 year contract and based on how our club is run we all should get used to the sight of Denis Pagan.

I say he used to be a good coach but thats all gone now.

Its like alot of other things in life... they change.
Its a young persons world. Everybody always is replaced by younger people with fresh ideas.

And if we are foolish enough to wait 3 more years of this just because he has a 3 year contract we might as well close up shop now.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

In my opinion Pagan has burnt a few careers at Carlton.
He has done this by having a game plan in the first 3 years that he was here that he no longer carries in his strategical arsenal.
So players like Sporn Wiggins Davies who were already here a week or two have been judged on a gameplan that isnt played anymore and a style of football that is a failure in todays competition.

Unfair on those kids...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

but woof so long and people simply discuss their views without getting angry at each other this discussion is worth having. i find it a great read in parts. Someone like BV has an excellent grasp of tactics/strategies. I'm the first to admit I'm not close to him in that area (hence I help my son's coach by being runner etc rather than coach) which is why I'm avoiding those points like hell (but those flaws of Pagan's are not the whole picvture, merely those parts of the picture that bug BV). He points to the very areas that i am also uneasy with.

But in the end the argument is really about what we want from a coach, Tyrant & BV wants someone to develop the kids, to spark their creativity. (a worthy cause I should think).

I want someone to assemble a team capable of winning a flag. So some of their areas of concern while I see as faults do not exclude (for me) Denis's vision. At this point I keep saying it is too early for me to judge that vision because i am happy with its first stage (which ends draft day this year). If we got flogged in several games this year by more than say 80 points, if we end up playing dispirited (as opposed to mistake riddled) football, if 1 or 2 of our gun kids expressed a desire to leave the club - then I'd join the lets search for a new coach. I do not see those signs at the moment and so i want us to concentrate on stage 1's completion.

Next year he must start to win more games. (Stage 2 - thats my reality) We must see signs of Denis's and his team's development of the team as a whole rather than signs of individual development (ie less of Tex, Ab's growth - more of 'shit look how we're moving the ball this year' stuff) I divide this way (purely arbitarily i admit) because I take youth as our single biggest factor at the moment. We need game time and year time - Denis seems to be addresing game time and year time happens naturally.

At no stage do i think Tyrant or BV hate Denis. They just have a different perspective than me. No one is right or wrong, its not black or white, its just what each of us want as Bluebaggers.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

you know a threads in trouble when someone mentions Alex Ischenko

The stevens-going-backward argument is an interesting one (from a few pages back) and jimmae and co didn't really respond to it. Saying "he has no support" isn't an argument FOR pagan when its the coaches job to build support. Having few good proven midfielders (well, only having 1 really - Stevens... - and Kouta in previous years) is a problem, but that isn't an excuse for over-using your only good player and only developing Bentick (and, to a lesser extent Carrazzo) to carry the load.

THATS how you develop a team... by not expecting too much of too few and giving opportunities to young players. A bloke like Jesse Smith (if fit) could be on our list now and (if fit) a better long-term prospect than Chambers.... why is it that Chambers has played 2 games and Smith (or Blackwell, for someone who hasnt been injured) has played none?

"But Tyrant... he's too inexperienced to play on the ball... we'll get killed!"

WE'RE GETTING BEATEN NOW AND WILL CONTINUE TO GET BEATEN WITH OUT WITHOUT BLACKWELL IN THE TEAM!

A coach who cared about development could play Stevens on a forward or back flank to keep him fresh and take a hit in the midfield to try young players. A coach who was focussed on development wouldn't have picked Chambers earlier in the year.. in fact, he wouldn't have even brought him to the club!

I'm not going to go overboard with the Stevens going backward argument..... my point here is you can't use the fact that we have poor players as a reason to overwork our only good one

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Love Cricket? Love me

Excellent work Danny.
Debate about the issue is healthy.
It doesnt mean I hate Denis. I actually would be rapt if Denis was tactically capable and passing on his knowledge.
How much easier would that be?
I just dont think he is.

But I'm happy to debate the point.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.