I think Tyrant that Pagans philosophy is not to rush young players into the seniors (unless they are standouts), but to rather let them develop, both physically and mentally, through the reserves.
One side says that bringing youth into the seniors gives them valuable experience, with which I agree. The other side says that if you bring youth in to early before they are developed, then the risk of injury is much greater and also the player has a better chance of being burnt out before his time. I agree with this also.

I question some of Pagans decisions also, but then again I see glimpses of what is possible if we have a bit more patience. AW is a good point. Last year most people were questioning the role he was given (including me), but this year I see a player that has improved on certain parts of his game, and is slowly but surely being let of his leash.

I totally agree with Dannyboy on this one. If everything is taking into account over the past few years, then we are only at the first stage of our rebuilding phase, which unfortunatley is very painful at times, but I think more will be revealed next year as to whether DP is truly developing the team of THIS MIGHTY FOOTBALL CLUB.

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

Chambers has not been hindered by Pagan. Chambers has let himself down since the day after winning the Wizard Cup. He looked good in the fizz kicking 50 metre goals...in fact he looked like a good purchase at the time...that all dried up...and he's learned how to declare himself unfit for seniors...using the fumble skill.

I agree with DB. We are in a rebuilding phase, and there's a lot of young kids to be tried and tested. More importantly due to our position on the ladder we can afford to risk bringing in the young ones, although I have argued the point previously of their potential susceptibility to injury.

If DP suggests to the media that Carlton are practising their kicking and decision making, and id it's true, then this is the right thing to do. Get the basics right. But to neglect kick in strategies, zoning, alternative structures, plan C,D,E and creative plays is also part of his obligation to the team, and it looks as though either he is failing, or the kids are failing to execute whatever may have been drilled into them.

Next year he must start to win more games with more improvement from the kids, as we are not too far off ATM.

What BV states and supports with good examples does scare the shit out of me though.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Now about that move of Lance BV

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Jesse Smith is a rookie so how can hew play any senior games?

I think thats Tyrants point....that Smith should be on the senior list in preference to some retreds like Chambers and that he offers more long term...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I am in no way trying to stop the debate I am just rasing another issue. If the general consensus is that Pagan should go by years end I seriously doubt that this board has the courage to take such action.

Yes but you can't get listed players off the list mid season - Capuano.

Agree...and I cant speak for Tyrants but I think he would have had Smith promoted along with Setanta at the expense of someone like Chambers however the club probably didnt feel Smith had earned it and Chambers and others still had contracts.and it was too costly to pay them out...

I think a few of us would like to see young Flint on the senior list but apart from LTI's that isnt going to happen

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Jesse may have been a chance as a nominated rookie but his torn pectoral muscle ruined his early season.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

yeah, thats true Bondy.... and ultimately the "development" issue is a very ideological one.. there's no proven method.

Obviously Pagan and I differ idealogically on this issue.... I find that frustrating, just as I found a lot of the idealogies of Parko and Brittain (ie, the trades) very frustrating as well.

At the end of the day, I can accept idealogical differences. What I struggle with is inconsistency. What is it about Murphy that means he gets to play every week, and Blackwell not? Is there something ABOUT Blackwell that Pagan thinks precludes him from selection? Is it just draft selection? level of ability? Isn't development about helping players lift their ability level??

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Love Cricket? Love me

yeah.... you're right Elwood

My point was that Smith SHOULD be on the list... and the fact that he's NOT is another example of questionable "development strategy".

(and I reckon a fully fit Smith would be a great asset for our senior team... we should be trying to groom him as another Bentick... he's angry and has a dip)

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Love Cricket? Love me

If Brisbane start to free fall as I expect they will in the coming years is it a case that Leigh Matthews is finished as a coach or is it just the normal cycle of a football club?
What about in two years time they decide to get a new coach, Lethal has had enough. Akers gone, Voss is gone, Lappin's gone, Leppa's gone, Michael is on his last legs. Power and Black can't cope any more because the opposition only has to chop out those two players (Fab 2 not Fab 5). There's more ... then the AFL says you are virtually banned from the next two drafts.

Now people can predict that Fev is close to chucking a big wobbly in the next few weeks. Can someone give me an indication as to how long it will take for Brisbane to get back on their feet again?
How many years will it take Brisbane to get back?

Why is it a time issue?
Dont assume it is always impatience that dictates the need for change.

I dont care if it takes 5 years to consistently make finals. As long as I am seeing development of the players.
If we won 5 games this year but the youngsters were given plenty of game time, fantastic.
As long as they are being groomed in various positions and given plenty of game time.
The key is training as well.
It's no good if we go out and do the same things at training every week.
Work on set plays, put the players in situations where their decision making is developed.

If Leigh Matthews is being consistent in his rebuilding philosophy and shows an ability to accelerate their learning both physically and intellectually. How could a supporter want more?

Has Denis done any of the above consistently since he's been at Carlton?
I say no.

Dont assume it is a time issue.
It's about consistency of philosophy and a demonstrated ability to develop.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Fair points BV but invariably it becomes a time issue. This post did not start in Round 1 after a win, it started in Round 5 after 4 losses. In the first 5 games of this year I have been rapt with the kids performance. I can honestly say that a most of the kids are playing better football this year than they were last year. I don't know whether they can sustain it but I think most are playing better football than last year.

True Woof but I've been of this opinion from Denis' first year and I'm sure most posters are aware of that.
I'm on record here and on TBV as having concerns about Pagans tactical nous and his inability to develop the players.
This isnt some recent whim.
I can also lead you back to posts prior to this season where my opinion was identical.
If anything Denis has improved this year and I give him credit for that.
But it's not enough and the loss of development from his first 3 years can not be forgiven.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Nothing in particular. I just feel that some players will only be so so no matter how much effort is put into their development. Having said that others strike me as having huge upside but we may not have the process in place to realise this.

He has improved after exhausting every other route and being forced into more urgent development ....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Agree with Rod Wadell on those playes they have shown nothing

you people.....All of you.....ALL OF YOU

Alittle something from the family album CG. Don't tell me.....let me guess...........Aunty Matilda and the twins from Tassie and cousin Bruce from the Nimbin ?

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”