apparently none. if they come good is because of 'other' factors, if they do not it is because of Denis. This is called rational debate.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The problem is very few become good....

Very, very, very , precious few...


And thats why i might suggest we are last and with very, very , very low percentages.. over a 4 year period...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

with Wiggo the same thing will happen as every other player... improve .look promising... hit the glass ceiling... go backwards... and delisted...

Nobody takes the step to consistency... well maybe one opr two.. but we need a bunch coming through ...not the odd one or two... with the rest showing potential for yearsssssssssss.....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Thornton is one of those players and is streets ahead of Swan or Baker. Betts is another that was passed over, has not only shown the goods but has scope to burn. Fisher is another. Simmo is another...

Where are the players to support these, to highlight their strengths and sometimes hide their deficiencies? Pagan has had none of these players to work with. Andy McKay was about the only salt of the earth champion leader left at the club who didn't think he needed to be told so that could have pulled us through, but how was he supposed to steady the ship on the field in his twilight with all our other 'champions' jumping overboard when Jack got his deserts and suddenly Carlton was hard work again? Pagan inherited the debris of a car wreck. We're lucky to have pedals.

How much spilt milk do you want to stew over? We changed department heads didn't we? Or do we chuck an assitant coach every year until fortune sprouts and then we can say...How smart are we?

I don't think it's a perfect situation at Carlton at the moment but we have to get our timing right. We're not in a position to make headlines for the sake of it in order to prove we are doing something. Sack Pagan? Get who? New coach finishes the year with the Blues in the bottom three. Trade for good kids in the super-doper-draft...team lifts next year? The year after? Who rode the storm? PAGAN BLOODY HAS.

You sit in the stands and behind your computer and ride it also, but where is your support of your club? You just decimate and bitch andchange and moan and crap-on and engender an entirely un-Carlton culture. Nobody should follow blindly but this main board is as negative as cancer ever was.

Pagan is not going to get the Blues to the grand final in his tenure, but neither is any other coach, (whom we have to pay $$$'s we can't afford). Pagan will establish a framework of discipline that is resilient and brave and won't throw it's arese in the air when things are going badly for a lot longer than you think it should.

We have been spoilt, remember that. So don't act spoilt. We as a club can't afford to and we as a supporter base can't afford to. This place smells of yellow & black and black & white and red & black day by @#$%&! day.

How many games have you seen Swan play this year?

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

But how would Dane Swan go at Carlton Effes? He's looked good this season but I'd be willing to bet that he wouldn't have been that good playing for Carlton. Similarly, put Thornton in the Collingwood side and I bet he'd be a bloody good defender.

I think a lot of it has to do with how the side as a whole is performing.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Allan, Matthew - time to go, nothing to do with Pagan, feet and age.
Angwin, Laurence - headcase.
Beasy, Callan - Soft, never came on,no one else jumped at him.
Beaumont, Simon - woeful disposal, hard worker in a good team then age and shit team made him redundant.
Campbell, Blake - injuries and attitude.
Camporeale, Scott - age
Croad, Cameron - didn't want it.
Davies, Justin - how's that back. Head also. Went home. How bad does he want it?
Eccles, Andrew - who was the [REDACTED] who picked him up?
Fevola, Brendan - far better
Fisher, Brad - has developed very well but I guiess we can blame Denis for the knee.
Fletcher, Simon - never had it.
Franchina, Anthony - never had it.
Freeborn, Scott - injured leg ended his career.
French, Barnaby - better now than I thought he would be but will never, ever be a champion.
Hickmott, Adrian - age
Houlihan, Ryan - plays a much more varied role, though he showed this under Brits in that footscray game at the dome.
Hulme, Darren - age.
Koutoufides, Anthony - knees/age.
Lappin, Matthew - has been bloody great under Denis.
Livingston, Luke - struggles, though how much is because of that back I guess we'll never know. I do know you see that brace on his back at training sometimes.
Manton, Glenn - bigger head than talent.
Martyn, Mick - weird huh?
Mathews, Adam - never thought he would.
McCormick, Jonathon - great ticker nothing else. Too slow.
McKay, Andrew - age
McKernan, Corey - headcase. The Baker-Finch of football.
Merrington, Andrew - Na.
Murphy, Justin - na.
Norman, Karl - didn't want it.
O'Keeffe, Sean - Liked Sean.
Plunkett, Jim - na.
Prendergast, Ian - still have time for Ian but he is limited. Seems he will never be that K.P we hoped for.
Ratten, Brett - age
Simpson, Kade - has come on leaps and bounds. Denis has been patient with him. gave him a taste, ler him go back to VFL, is playing well is a shite team.
Sporn, Trent - injuries seem to have made him slower. What position for Trent. Not pacey enough for wing or half-back. Not tall enough for KP.
Thornton, Bret - is playing as well now as ever.
Waite, Jarrad - Jarrad has shown glimpses and has developed but now at the next step stage if he can stay fit. I still have doubts he will be a CHF and would still love to see him play at CHB.
Whitnall, Lance - Back to his best.
Wiggins, Simon - has been great this last year.


AB - coming along nicely.
Tex - coming along nicely
Hartlett - thought he'd play a lot but injuries get in the way.
Bower - injured.
JR - looks like he is really putting it together in the VFL after his taste at AFL level - seems to be being handled perfectly.
DeLuca - seems to be now holding his marks but I worry about this one. Still ruckmen take a long time.
Setanta - well it was always a five year project but pleasing to hear he played well today at CHB.
Murph - star.
Longmuir - been injured, I was not happy with this choice, but we'll see tomorrow.
Betts - coming along well.
Blackwell - has had a taste but still too light for mine, thought that showed in last week's game. But he knows what's ahead of him now.
Bryan - does do much for me. Great kick. But so what. Where to play him,. like French and Mclaren I just see him as too short for the ruck.
JK - has had a taste, would be careful with him this year, he did have a limited preseason, he's a long haul player, its fine to take our time with him.
Cory - Essendon* got rid of him and as much as we hate them and Sheedy i admit the bugger rarely gets it wrong (or like Denis doesn't develop his players so that those he lets go are ruined), think Cory has done better than I hoped.
Raso - glandular fever = next year.
Saddo - silly pick I admit now, though at the time i was okay with it, still not a development issue.
Scotland - doing very well, not accountable though he's been played at HB to try and develop this side. Still developing and getting plenty of the ball.
Chambers - big disappointment. Soapy hands - a head thing as much as anything.
Teague - won a B&F but I remember saying in his first year we would be a better side when he can't get a game, the fact people are furious he gets a game still makes me think we are getting better.
Stevens - needs a heap of support and a heap of leadership around him.
carrots - good to se ehim go back to the VFL and absolutely dominate - can't wait to see him come back in the side. Think his kicking is better (except for goal).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

this infatuation with dane F#### swan. Going thru a nice little patch at the moment. Let's assess his standing in 3-4 years.

Last year Malthouse couldn't coach, now he's a friggin genuis - go figure.
Oh and if I'm boring people, stiff shit the missus is watching the Filth game replay and I'm trying to do other things

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I saw Dane Swan completely f#*k up an easy kick this evening before injuring himself. I blame Pagan.

Seriously Effes. Dane f*#king Swan? Is that what this is about? All this shit you moaning bores persist with?

Have your Swan and go buy a black & white striped jumper to suit the white stripe down your back.

Dane f*#king Swan.

I'm not sure how he'd go at Carlton but you'd have to say he has been an integral part of Collingwood's improvement from the start of the season. In interviews he has said he didn't work as hard before last pre season and now has improved. Jobe Watson is another who has improved out of sight this season.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

JOBE F#*KING WATSON? How are the Bombers going about now? I BLAME PAGAN.

Dane f#*king Swan, Jobe f#*king Watson...what have these two ordinary-as-shit players got to do with Carlton and Pagan let alone the price of fish?

Jobe f*#king Watson...

Synbad once used a muffin analogy. The idea being that players were muffins and needed to be cooked in an oven before being ready.

This discussion becomes a Cook Vs Ingredients issue.

I have looked through our recipe book over the last 5 years Carlton National Draft and I see nothing on that list that has been picked up by another bakery.

Look at St. Kilda, Grant Thomas and a bundle of Hot Cross Buns.

It's the ingredients people. The 1999 and 2000 drafts were disasters and then the ALF f*cked us over.

Keep waiting until it's our turn. That's the AFL way.

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If you'd given me the choice of going out and beating four men and smashing a goal in from thirty yards against Liverpool
or going to bed with Miss World, it would have been a difficult choice. Luckily, I had both. - George Best

so does that make Synners the muffin man?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The muffin man?

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If you'd given me the choice of going out and beating four men and smashing a goal in from thirty yards against Liverpool
or going to bed with Miss World, it would have been a difficult choice. Luckily, I had both. - George Best

Id rather be the muffin man than the nuff nuff man...

And we cant develop .. simple as that.

someone compares T Bird to Swan...

But how many T Birds do we have?....


And Swan/ Baker/Johnston is what most footballers are... theyre not Judds theyre not Murphys...

Where are our developed footballers??

and let me say this.... Pagan wont survive... he just hasnt got it!!!...

The ingredients for a muffin is any kid drafted... the rest is what you do with those ingredients...

We do nothing with most... and the nuff niffs arent answering the question...

What game plan have all our players (especially the failed ones) been given to play??

Can anyone give me an outline???

Its not like he is a new coach and working on new things...

Entertain me nuff nuffs....


If you can point to a game plan that they were unable to fit into.. you and Denis might have a leg to stand on...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

no, I think I'd have to agree with you on gameplan. And settle down the muffin man was just in reference to that song so lighten up oh profusely serious one.

In fact its what I mean by Denis, to me, appears to have lost his nerve. I still cannot get the whizz fizz out of my head. At that point I would have argued that he did have a gameplan and that he was developing a team to play it. It was a fast game, plenty of interchange, demanding on lots of midfielders running carrying and defending space, forcing opponents wide when they had the ball, bringing the ball fast and staight we we had it.

What has happened to that plan? I called it a swamp, far superior to a floood because it had the ability to turn into swift counter attacks. Now we laze about in the aftermath of the flood, like fish flopping on the draining banks, our young players gasp for an option.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

It seems to me that Denis will only accept players in the seniors HE thinks are ready/developed enough to play HIS style of team standard/gameplan.
It seems to me that Denis will not develop players (ala Alistair Clarkson) in the seniors 'on the job' ...they must be at a certain high level of development that Pagan feels is adequate for HIS game style.

A kid sitting on the pine for most of the day is not a 'youth policy' IMO.

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There's so much I could say...

If we have had no gameplan.. my point is alot of players would fall by the wayside because theyre unsure of what theyre trying to do...
Confidence is a big thing when youre doing anything in life.

Our players have had no clue for 4 years and they have not been helped by the older players who just have not tried .

Anyone can fall away under those circumstances.. in anything in life.

Not just football.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

it is far easier for a coach - any coach - if they have a strong, powerful leadership group. We lack this. In many ways it is the leadership group more thna any coach that develops the kids.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!