Some food for thought

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:52 pm

Sydney Blue wrote:

Does anyone think that we might be doing what the AFL wants us to do. That it might not be Pagan or the list and that as a club in general we are towing the line that the AFL want. I know this might sound something right out of left feild but if Carlton had or do become sucessful in the next 2-3 years would this be a slap in the face to the AFL . Would it completely undermine their draft and salary cap if we were to win a flag before 2010.
Surely the last thing the AFL would want was success at Carlton. Clubs would be breaching caps all over the place if it only meant being down for 2-3 years

Its just a thought because no body seems to be able to point the finger at one particular issue as the cause of the clubs recent form. And I cant beleive for one minute we are as bad as we look.

Well, it is a theory I guess...

...but I don't buy it.

Oh, can you tell me who shot JFK, whereabouts in Arizona the Eagle did land, and where Harold Holt is I'd appreciate that.

BrizzyBlue · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:54 pm

dannyboy wrote:

Sydney - Take the rest of the year off!

Prez - Well take out a St Kilda membership and Grant and his superbly performing saints are all yours :roll:

So tell me geniuses, if we sacked pagan what do you think would be the first thing a new coach might do come season's end?

Sack a few - maybe 10 or more? You bet your little bpottoomee he would - why/
Cos we have a fair few players who are not very good players - is that gentle enough for their egos, not that we have proof of course that pago Pago (I love that) did actually bawl ythem out, but hey a rumour is as good as an innuendo! So this new ciach sacks them gets the kids in (cos we have the drfat thingy happening again this year) and viola wunderkid!

Jesus listening to the moaning going on in here reminds me of why elliott felt he had to aqiuire hacks, demand we never rebuilt and paid everyone far too much!

Is pagan a good coach? Yes two flags good - and yes carey was good, shit so was sticks (2 flags!) and Hart wasn't a bad CHF - maybe Haffey was a dud! oh and what about them Hawthorn sides with Dermie - shit I could have coached them!

get real people, of course he had a champion CHF in carey and Haffey had hart and we had Sticks and jezza and Nichols and...oh i see you need talent to win a flag - and guess what/ That's pagan's plan - to win a flag, not to coddle a bunch of shit footballers along for a few months so we can
win a couple of games.

Now there have bene a few players who have disappointed - Whits apart from his last two games. Stevens - shit year. Sporn and Wiggo, I am beginning to fear were wasted picks.
Teague - I had my doubts about him eraly on, a good solid footballer with a great heart, but for him to win our best and fairest, well lets just say it shows we are shit. Bannister - doesn't get the ball. Davies - isn't getting it enough but i would perserve with him.

Point is these players are professionals, same as Pagan, now oif he decides they are not up to it - that's his choice and good on him! And he'll be right and I am glad he is prepared to call it for the Blues - I do not want another 10 years of this wallowing in the mud is gives me the shits!

Last year Pagan got a lot out of that group - far more than anyone expected - even Sticks in that wallsey interview was amazed at how well pago pago did. hey but what would sticks now, he was just a bloody champion CHF pffft. Now this year after signing the contract and getting the go ahead from the baord, pagan ahs enetered phase 2 and that involves phasing out those not needed/goodenough/lazy or wahtever.

the fat contracts are almost over, the picks are there again and we need to pick up some talent (Pagan and collo have been telling us this for a while because they know there is little difference betwene a mad Carlton supporter and a Mad Richmond one (maybe a truck load of a manure) - so take heed - we will be shit this year for good reason.

Also who is off side (if any in this gossipping little crap we call thread0? maybe those off side are those going? Gee, well piss off! Goodbye, Syornara! (?)

Yes I am behind Pagan, he has (unlike you SB or Chickenlittle) 2 flags and many, many runs on the baord. he came here with a dream and a will, he is sacrificing his hard earned reputation on this one and unlike some who might think it best to jump ship, he has signed up again for 3 more years and he is pushing this damn club back into some form of shape (go Collo!)
will he win our next flag?

Too early to call but this I do know, like Barrass at Melbounre, when pagan goes (with little or much success) this club will be in a far better shape than it was when he arrived. After the pat four years, that is what really counts!

Gotta agree with most of your post, old fruit. Don't know where I got the Pago Pago from. Might have heard it somewhere, but it seems to fit. PAGO PAGO!!

BlueMark · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:12 pm

Sydney Blue wrote:

Its just a thought because no body seems to be able to point the finger at one particular issue as the cause of the clubs recent form. And I cant beleive for one minute we are as bad as we look.

We aren't as bad as we look, the cause of the recent form slump is not due to one factor but a number of convergent issues.

Evertything from a poor level of skills, re-active coaching, form slumps in various players, a young list, injuries to key players, opposition teams doing thier homework on us and a resultant drop in confidence have all contributed to the current results.

The growing calls to sack certain players, even Pagan or the need to 'tank' are simplistic answer to a deeper probelm that needs addressing in broader terms.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:19 pm

SB that's gotta be the best one yet!

Collo: Denis here is a further 3 years only 1 condition.

DP: What's hat Collo old man?

Collo: Tell him Sticks.

Sticks: Owwhh, why me.

Collo: Do the crime, do the time. tell him.

Sticks: Well DP its like this, we ummm, we like you and think you're ar egreta coach and...

DP:Stop pissing down my neck Sticks, the sun's out, tell me what's what.

Sticks: We do not want to win a flag until 2010.

DP: What the Flying Nun!

Collo: We do not want to upset the apple cart.

DP: Apple cart! You're upsetting the whole darn Orchard!

Collo: We cannot win a flag too soon DP.

DP: And pray tell, why is that?

Sticks: The AFL would get real upset if we were to win a flag after them punishments.

DP: This is a joke right?

Collo: No Joke DP. Sign, take three years, make sure we are crap and i'll garauntee you another 3 after that.

DP: But my record!

Collo: But this club's record! We cannot upset AFL.

DP: But the members, the supporters, the players, the staff, the voluntters, shit The Ghost, Collo, have you thought about what this would do to the Ghost?

Collo: We have. We must appease the AFL. We cannot risk updetting
them.

DP: Why not?

Collo: Would look good. Ruin the draft, the whole system would collpase and carlton wouldstart winning too many flags again.

DP: Oh, Oh that makes sense. Okay where do I sign.

Elwood Blues1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am **Posts:** 4827

So Pagan has said that some of the players are no good, have bad attitudes and cant play senior AFL footy....and the players dont like it and are rebelling..for the second time.
So it must be the fault of the coach and we should get rid of him by any smart means possible so we can save paying him out....

Pagan is right.....a lot of our players are not any good so why lead them on about their future at the club...

They dont like it...fine...cull them...

Get rid of the coach....ok...but all those saying get rid of Pagan if you notice have failed to list a alternative......who is going to coach? name some names..

We have a good coach with a proven record, we have a poor list of players...how hard is it to figure out who needs replacing....

dannyboy · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:22 pm

Ron evans would make a fine coach

or matty allan

or Simon Beaumont

actually i like that photo of Eccles in the paper the ther day - wonder if he wants to coach?

The Duke · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:29 pm

Totally agree DannyBoy. IF there are players that are un-happy - who are they? Give us an idea of their standing in the club. Are they the top tier players, or are they the Bannisters, the Sporns, the Delucas etc.

Those rotating players in the worst team in the competition have very few bargaining chips when it comes controlling who is in charge at the club.

These guys need to work their arses off because come seasons end we're gonna be bringing in talent and have further talent developing from last years draft. This means (hopefully) the only spots left will be good back-up 3rd tier players that might be playing 8-12 games a year (depth). If they're not up to remaining on the Blues list to add 'depth', then piss off - see how you fair in the PSD.

ScottSaunders · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:30 pm

let me explain my stance on this.

i refer to grant thomas as being good for the players but lacking in technical ability.

What im saying, and the point was missed is this.

If Pagan has torn into a player or several players infront of the playing group - sorry that isnt on. Im not talking about giving them a serve becuase they didnt do was asked of them, but flately declaring that they are crap and shouldnt be playing AFL is not on. You can have your misgivings about a player but you do it behind close doors and not infront of everyone. Indeed i raises the question. Who is he referring too, surely it isnt someone he wanted to bring to this club?

Grant Thomas i think understands this as his approach to his players is pretty good. I agree they arent winning and that is because he cant "coach" but the way he handles his players is spot on. Dont think anyone here can question that.

Pagan declaring someone cant play AFL infront of the playing staff - is poor coaching and that is what i was referring to inregards comparings Pagan to Grant Thomas.

But people refer to the players as the reason for our demise. But i dont see it that way. IMO its the coach, the playing staff and the match committee arent performing when we are playing like we are.

IMO - its quite simple - if there is decent fine - drop them to the two and tell them they wont play another game in the seniors, regardless of who they are. This is where i think the coach, coaching staff and match committee has been very poor.

If the likes of Campo etc.. are showing decent then flower drop them. There is no point playing Campo & Scotland so they can get 15 ineffective possessions each and then drop Livo and Teague who will bust a gut everytime they cross the line, sorry decent is there for a reason and the reason is the coach and coaching staff as well as the match committee didnt act upon it quick enough.

and that blames lays fairly and squarely at the feet of the coach.

Sydney Blue · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:37 pm

dannyboy wrote:

SB that's gotta be the best one yet!

Collo: Denis here is a further 3 years only 1 condition.

DP: What's hat Collo old man?

Collo: Tell him Sticks.

Sticks: Owwhh, why me.

Collo: Do the crime, do the time. tell him.

Sticks: Well DP its like this, we ummm, we like you and think you're ar egreta coach and...

DP:Stop pissing down my neck Sticks, the sun's out, tell me what's what.

Sticks: We do not want to win a flag until 2010.

DP: What the Flying Nun!

Collo: We do not want to upset the apple cart.

DP: Apple cart! You're upsetting the whole darn Orchard!

Collo: We cannot win a flag too soon DP.

DP: And pray tell, why is that?

Sticks: The AFL would get real upset if we were to win a flag after them punishments.

DP: This is a joke right?

Collo: No Joke DP. Sign, take three years, make sure we are crap and i'll garauntee you another 3 after that.

DP: But my record!

Collo: But this club's record! We cannot upset AFL.

DP: But the members, the supporters, the players, the staff, the voluntters, shit The Ghost, Collo, have you thought about what this would do to the Ghost?

Collo: We have. We must appease the AFL. We cannot risk updetting
them.

DP: Why not?

Collo: Would look good. Ruin the draft, the whole system would collpase and carlton wouldstart winning too many flags again.

DP: Oh, Oh that makes sense. Okay where do I sign.

Danny stranger things have happen you know. It is the most socailistic game in the world and you all know what those Commo's are like :lol:

Everyone shall be equal - Hey you wait your turn

SurreyBlue · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am **Posts:** 10627

What we need is what Essendon* showed on the weekend. Guts, heart and determination does wonders. This is what's missing this year and for that Pagan must take responsibility, that's it in a nut shell. Essendon* aren't more skillful than us either but they had a dig and where prepared to bat for each other.

Sydney Blue · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:41 pm

SurreyBlue wrote:

What we need is what Essendon* showed on the weekend. Guts, heart and determination does wonders. This is what's missing this year and for that Pagan must take responsibility, that's it in a nut shell. Essendon* aren't more skillful than us either but they had a dig and where prepared to bat for each other.

Surrey you know better than that by now- they have a terrific list

Carltons list = crap
Everyone whos wins list = terrific
Carltons Coach = terrific
Everyone else who wins coach = crap

The Duke · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:43 pm

Prez, the season's gone. Pagan has said they're not up to AFL because they simply aren't!! This is quite literally their last gasp, if they can't show something in the next 8 weeks their football dream is over, it's as simple as that.

Denis would love to see Bannister come out and play 4 quarters of brilliant footy to keep his spot, but there's no point pussy footing around the issue and stroking them with kind words of encouragement.

Denis' got nothing to lose by being brutally honest with those that struggle to perform, they won't be there in 2 months anyway.

ScottSaunders · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:45 pm

The Duke wrote:

Denis' got nothing to lose by being brutally honest with those that struggle to perform, they won't be there in 2 months anyway.

ive no problem at all with that - it should be behind close doors though.

but i certainly hope that applies to the likes of Scotland, Campo and a few others.

or is there a set of rules for some and another set for the others?

camel · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:56 pm

I agree that in theory it could be a poor thing to berate a player in front of the group. But without having full knowledge of the facts at hand, ie) did it actually happen and if so, the reasons that lead Denis to making the comment, then I find it a little difficult to speak with authority on whether Denis is not performing well as a man manager. There's two sides to every story and for all we know he could have been completely justified in his alledged commentary of said player.

We can speculate, but there's a reason that Denis is coach and we're not.

I think it's great, well kind of, that we're not happy with poor results and that we're demanding more from our players and coaches etc, but really, we need time. As much as I don't like it, or even like to think about it, I reckon this year has been written off by the club. Maybe I'm a fool, but I expect to see a healthy form reversal for us in 2006.

The Duke · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:13 pm

ThePrez wrote:

but i certainly hope that applies to the likes of Scotland, Campo and a few others.

or is there a set of rules for some and another set for the others?

Unfortunately, some of the Z grade players will have to improve a lot to reach Scotland and Campo's 'lofty' standards - and that's a depressing statement alone

dannyboy · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:14 pm

now camel who cares what/if he said why/when/how/to whom...lets just get stuck into him 'cos ...well 'cos we are losing and we are carlton (stamps foot) and we don't like it (use royal we and burst into tears).

ps jar jar - could be the gin isn't being drunk inthe morning or ealy afternoon :wink:

CarltonClem · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:19 pm

Sydney Blue wrote:

What a Precious little commodity has Denis Pagan become void of all criticism . Its not his fault we are last

Poor little Denis hasn't got the players he needs and the ones he has wont do as he says.
Looks like Denis will have to find some new players that will play the way he wants to.

Give me a break

If Al Clarkson or Wallet was our coach and we'd still be last, then I guess the common denominator would be...

The players perhaps?

Easy way out is the blame the coach. Seems like in your books the players are exempt. :roll:

CarltonClem · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:36 pm

It's a multitude of factors, and to be blaming one factor is reductionist and irrational IMO.

It seems like TC is split between 2 camps: those that think our players are crap and those who can't believe we're that bad and blame Pagan.

I'd like to be publicly known as a person who sits in a 3rd camp. This camp says that we have personnel problems, put our list next to West Coast and hello...no contest.

I also think we have cultural issues within the playing group.

I also think that Pagan's style is very hardline and totalitarian and some players may not respond to that. Having said that, you either choose between the coach or the players if there's a revolt and quite frankly if it's the lesser players who can't cop it, then you'd have to side with the coach. We're not here to mollycoddle players who aren't mentally strong enough to want to improve. We're here to build a premiership side that is tough mentally and physically. Have a look at the players of the Roos in the 90's. The ones that survived were mentally tough, Martyn, Archer, Simpson, Blakey, Carey etc. etc., players that didn't fell by the way side.

We look at Carlton teams of old, they were mentally tough; Ashman, Harmes, Doull, Johnston, Fitzpatrick, Kernahan, Williams, Silvagni, Nicholls, need I go on...

The lack of mental hardness at this football club is one thing that Denis brings and if some players can't hack it, then they have to toughen up or they can play for a soft club.

Too easy to dismiss the whole issue as one dimensional; it's the easy way out. I'd like, however, for a another assistant coach to be found to replace Libba at the end of the year. I'd like a premiership player who has a proven record of being tough if that's possible. Worsfold was great for us because he played that way as well. Now his side is doing likewise at WCE.

Another one of them please.

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

Clem, I'm of a 4th group: Our players aren't that crap, but lack the determination and drive to take them higher than their abilities alone have got them so far.
We all saw how Fev was drafted on ability alone, then did a whole lot of nothing, on the back of 12 goals in a meaningless match one summer's night because of a lack of application with his skills.

I think a major part of our dilemma is that early in the season, we thought we were a whole lot better than we were in reality, because of the Wiz, and now, we think (especially the younger players) that we'rea lot worse than we really are, and as a result, there's an air of "oh well, why bother, we can't beat them anyway."

Sydney Blue · **Posted:** Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:01 pm

CarltonClem wrote:

Sydney Blue wrote:

What a Precious little commodity has Denis Pagan become void of all criticism . Its not his fault we are last

Poor little Denis hasn't got the players he needs and the ones he has wont do as he says.
Looks like Denis will have to find some new players that will play the way he wants to.

Give me a break

If Al Clarkson or Wallet was our coach and we'd still be last, then I guess the common denominator would be...

The players perhaps?

Easy way out is the blame the coach. Seems like in your books the players are exempt. :roll:

No CC some of these players we have in this team are rubbish . you are correct . But not the players that seem to cop all the abuse on this site.
Blokes like Bannister- Prentagast- Morrell - clarke- Johnson- Bowyer should have not been brought to the club or be playing for the club. Everyone on this site wants to blame our troubles on two players Campo and Whitnal. If every other player in this side produced what they did we wouldn't be where we are. The fact that Denis Pagan cant even get the guys tackling and doing the simple things - Is why I dont like him. Didn't like him when he was at North - He under acheived there. Hated it when we bought him for $800k per year and will continue to dislike him in the future regardless of what limited success he will acheive. I say limited because we are going no where :roll:

Some food for thought

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