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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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McKaysMistress wrote:
We're crap and we need those picks - end of story.



So simple, so right. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:48 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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McKaysMistress wrote:
BlueMark, I don't need to go back and re-read your post. You could write a thesis and it wouldn't change my opinion one little bit.

We're crap and we need those picks - end of story.


Fair enough.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:09 pm 
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Garry Crane
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Barney wrote:
I'm sorry, but I think the whole premise of your argument is a crock of shit.

Nobody at Carlton is "playing for picks", they just either a) aren't very good b) are still developing or c) aren't playing at their best. No cheating - we are going to get a priority pick because we have one of the worst lists in history.

Youngsters can still get better by gaining experience at the highest level even if the team is losing. Nobody is being "taught to lose".

Your final paragraph is the only thing I agree with.


Good call barney. Obviously the Scottish highlands fresh air did you a world of good :wink:
There are a lot of flaws in his argument but your brief summary covers most points

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Garry Crane
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Okay BlueMark you've advocated your point of view. So if you think the draft , playing for picks, cheating, loosing culture blah blah blah whatever you want to call it, is not how it's done then what is your solution in rebuilding this side? The "Draf Camp" people have said this is the best way, please tell us the "Proud and Patriotic" alternative way.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:48 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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BlueMark wrote:
Good to see the tankers have a whinge about someone actually examining thier arguements in detail.

Don't like being challanged the tankers, why? Because they know that thier arguement is simplistic and berefit of any real rational basis.

If we are bad and we are then we should take a pick, but to delibertly advocate being bad, then that is, in my view the easy way out and one that has some real danger behind it.


Ok, I was going to let it go, but seeings you stuck your hand down the hole now you're just begging for it:

[quote="BlueMark"]‘It is good for the club!â€


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:58 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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The flaw in the Play for Picks arguement, is that for it to work is that you need to stay on the bottom for a number of years to access enough stars to challange for the flag. If you do this then you need to get your recruiting absoloutly right, becaue if you make a mistake than you are doomed to even longer on the bottom.
It is a high risk strategy with the downsides I have highlighted previously with a narrow focus upside.

What I have always argued is that development is more important. ie we get the players and we develop them, but we aslo recruit experience at the same time to bolster the youngsters (This is the prime reason St Kilda recruited Hamill and Gherig).

Having spoken to recruiters aligned with both AFL and VFL clubs, the primary consideration in recruiting now is character, temperment and willingness to improve rather than pure talent. Having been involved in sport all my life I have seen literally dozens of highly talented athletes not succeed because they lacked work ethic. But I seen literally dozens of good to average athletes make and become stars because they worked unbelievably hard at thier sport.

In short what I advocate is a wholistic approach to rebuilding a side that encompasses not only the draft and development but also a leavening of experience to allow the 'kids' to learn.

We are expecting a lot from our early picks and I really hope they become superstars because if they don't make it, there will be a lot of very dissappointed and pissed off people. And it would not suprise me that those who advocate the Playing for picks method will be the first sharpening thier knives.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Thanks Nightcrawler, a great counter agruement and it has merit.

The only misunderstanding I want to address, is that I do not think the club is delibertly losing games, in fact I am confident that Dennis is trying to win as many as possible. If the club was 'tanking' then there would not be a review at sesons end.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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BlueMark wrote:
The flaw in the Play for Picks arguement, is that for it to work is that you need to stay on the bottom for a number of years to access enough stars to challange for the flag. If you do this then you need to get your recruiting absoloutly right, becaue if you make a mistake than you are doomed to even longer on the bottom.
It is a high risk strategy with the downsides I have highlighted previously with a narrow focus upside.

What I have always argued is that development is more important. ie we get the players and we develop them, but we aslo recruit experience at the same time to bolster the youngsters (This is the prime reason St Kilda recruited Hamill and Gherig).

Having spoken to recruiters aligned with both AFL and VFL clubs, the primary consideration in recruiting now is character, temperment and willingness to improve rather than pure talent. Having been involved in sport all my life I have seen literally dozens of highly talented athletes not succeed because they lacked work ethic. But I seen literally dozens of good to average athletes make and become stars because they worked unbelievably hard at thier sport.

In short what I advocate is a wholistic approach to rebuilding a side that encompasses not only the draft and development but also a leavening of experience to allow the 'kids' to learn.

We are expecting a lot from our early picks and I really hope they become superstars because if they don't make it, there will be a lot of very dissappointed and pissed off people. And it would not suprise me that those who advocate the Playing for picks method will be the first sharpening thier knives.


I don't see how getting the priority pick, and recruiting and developing players with good work eithic plus trading for experience, are mutually exclusive. Surely more draft picks enables you to do more of both of the latter?

And if work ethic is more important that natural talent, then why are you pro-whitnall and Campo? Are you saying their experience is worth enough that the club should put up with their questionable work ethics?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:14 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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BlueMark wrote:
Thanks Nightcrawler, a great counter agruement and it has merit.

The only misunderstanding I want to address, is that I do not think the club is delibertly losing games, in fact I am confident that Dennis is trying to win as many as possible. If the club was 'tanking' then there would not be a review at sesons end.


In the other thread you said you do not think we're playing to our ability. Do you draw a distinction between that and tanking then?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:38 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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We are not playing to our ability and it has nothing to with tanking. It has more to do with the attitude of players on-field, which has been for most of the season appalling. Tanking as you know is where you delibertly lose, we have been far from delibertly losing, more of a "I couldn't give a stuff' attitude. An attitude that I was scathing about a couple of weeks ago. If a player 'gives up' then I do want them. Refer to my 'recruit players with a work ethic' rule.

As for Campo and Whits, both have worked hard this year and in the main I have been happy with them, but they too have been dssappointing at times. It does seem as though both have made an effort in the past couple of weeks because they are doing a lot of on field things that had been absent for a while, but I fear it maybe a case of to little to late. I should add I do not think either are 'natural' leaders in the mould of a Carey or Kernahan, however I do expect that they do at least show some leadership

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:19 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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I wonder If we really are tanking.

Sometimes I hope we are just so that I know next year we cant possibly as bad as we have been this year.

I have made my views against tanking well known but since there have only been a few positives to come out of this shocking year I am starting to hope we are.

If we waste those picks in the draft there will be hell to pay.

I know that I will look like a huge hyporcrite(spelling?) if i suddenly change my views on the subject but the more I think about it the positives are starting to outweigh the negatives to tanking.

The one thing that is stopping me jumping on the tanking bandwagon is that we are CARLTON and we play to WIN


Last edited by Locke on Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:24 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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The team will be trying its guts out to win the last few games. We are a big chance to win at least two.

Cest la vie
Sh*t happens
Que sera sera

Good on em if we do.

And if we don't it's because we're not good enough.

And then we'll get some picks.

It's simple isn't it??

Nightcrawler - a fantastic rant!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:32 pm 
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Bruce Comben
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[quote]You’ve used 130 words to say “losing football games is bad for future attendances and this impacts on the club’s revenuesâ€

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:11 pm 
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Garry Crane
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Locke wrote:
I know that I will look like a huge hyporcrite(spelling?)


Hypocrite....close enough :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:40 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Locke wrote:
I wonder If we really are tanking.

Sometimes I hope we are just so that I know next year we cant possibly as bad as we have been this year.

I have made my views against tanking well known but since there have only been a few positives to come out of this shocking year I am starting to hope we are.

If we waste those picks in the draft there will be hell to pay.

I know that I will look like a huge hyporcrite(spelling?) if i suddenly change my views on the subject but the more I think about it the positives are starting to outweigh the negatives to tanking.

The one thing that is stopping me jumping on the tanking bandwagon is that we are CARLTON and we play to WIN


Nah - I reckon your just worried about your position because of how non-sensical some of Mark's posts are... :lol:

Great post nightcrawler. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:31 am 
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Serge Silvagni
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nightcrawler wrote:
BlueMark wrote:
Good to see the tankers have a whinge about someone actually examining thier arguements in detail.

Don't like being challanged the tankers, why? Because they know that thier arguement is simplistic and berefit of any real rational basis.

If we are bad and we are then we should take a pick, but to delibertly advocate being bad, then that is, in my view the easy way out and one that has some real danger behind it.


Ok, I was going to let it go, but seeings you stuck your hand down the hole now you're just begging for it:

[quote="BlueMark"]‘It is good for the club!â€

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:05 am 
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Bruce Doull
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BM , im not ridiculing you... you did it to yourself....

Nightcrawler i tried to make your post my new signature but it wouldnt fit. :cry:

Excellent post all the same.. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:33 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Should also add that just because StKilda have been a crap side for 120 years of their existence doesnt mean theyre more crap than us today.
In case you havent noticed BM because i know your head is up in the clouds and the air is very thin up there...

Were at the bottom right now.
StKilda have a very talented list full of early pick talent.
We have a huge debt ( it willo be addressed) but StKilda are on the way to another ONE MILION DOLLAR PROFIT and their debt is just about wiped off.
Would they have wiped that debt off and made those kinds of profits with a team that was perennially 10th??????

When youre selling something BM.. you get the most money for selling something that people want.The simple demand and supply.TV stations and corporates want to support StKilda but not North...
StKilda = talent=exciting football = $$$$$$$$$
North/Carlton= dour footy limited talent= Hard times...

Crap lists that try hard is not what people want to pay money for.

Who wants to watch Wayne Arthurs go down in the a closely fought 5 setter second round of a Grand Prix tournament in if you can watch Nadal ???

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:49 am 
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Ken Hunter
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TheSheik wrote:
[
That's probably the best read I've ever seen on this site, and gave me a laugh at the same time too !!



:? You should check out Warren more often! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I wouldn't be too pissed off if Mark Athorn & Tim Powell were given on ball duties for our remaining 4 games...

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