So simple, so right.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Fair enough.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Good call barney. Obviously the Scottish highlands fresh air did you a world of good
There are a lot of flaws in his argument but your brief summary covers most points

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

Okay BlueMark you've advocated your point of view. So if you think the draft , playing for picks, cheating, loosing culture blah blah blah whatever you want to call it, is not how it's done then what is your solution in rebuilding this side? The "Draf Camp" people have said this is the best way, please tell us the "Proud and Patriotic" alternative way.

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

Ok, I was going to let it go, but seeings you stuck your hand down the hole now you're just begging for it:

[quote="BlueMark"]‘It is good for the club!â€

The flaw in the Play for Picks arguement, is that for it to work is that you need to stay on the bottom for a number of years to access enough stars to challange for the flag. If you do this then you need to get your recruiting absoloutly right, becaue if you make a mistake than you are doomed to even longer on the bottom.
It is a high risk strategy with the downsides I have highlighted previously with a narrow focus upside.

What I have always argued is that development is more important. ie we get the players and we develop them, but we aslo recruit experience at the same time to bolster the youngsters (This is the prime reason St Kilda recruited Hamill and Gherig).

Having spoken to recruiters aligned with both AFL and VFL clubs, the primary consideration in recruiting now is character, temperment and willingness to improve rather than pure talent. Having been involved in sport all my life I have seen literally dozens of highly talented athletes not succeed because they lacked work ethic. But I seen literally dozens of good to average athletes make and become stars because they worked unbelievably hard at thier sport.

In short what I advocate is a wholistic approach to rebuilding a side that encompasses not only the draft and development but also a leavening of experience to allow the 'kids' to learn.

We are expecting a lot from our early picks and I really hope they become superstars because if they don't make it, there will be a lot of very dissappointed and pissed off people. And it would not suprise me that those who advocate the Playing for picks method will be the first sharpening thier knives.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Thanks Nightcrawler, a great counter agruement and it has merit.

The only misunderstanding I want to address, is that I do not think the club is delibertly losing games, in fact I am confident that Dennis is trying to win as many as possible. If the club was 'tanking' then there would not be a review at sesons end.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

I don't see how getting the priority pick, and recruiting and developing players with good work eithic plus trading for experience, are mutually exclusive. Surely more draft picks enables you to do more of both of the latter?

And if work ethic is more important that natural talent, then why are you pro-whitnall and Campo? Are you saying their experience is worth enough that the club should put up with their questionable work ethics?

In the other thread you said you do not think we're playing to our ability. Do you draw a distinction between that and tanking then?

We are not playing to our ability and it has nothing to with tanking. It has more to do with the attitude of players on-field, which has been for most of the season appalling. Tanking as you know is where you delibertly lose, we have been far from delibertly losing, more of a "I couldn't give a stuff' attitude. An attitude that I was scathing about a couple of weeks ago. If a player 'gives up' then I do want them. Refer to my 'recruit players with a work ethic' rule.

As for Campo and Whits, both have worked hard this year and in the main I have been happy with them, but they too have been dssappointing at times. It does seem as though both have made an effort in the past couple of weeks because they are doing a lot of on field things that had been absent for a while, but I fear it maybe a case of to little to late. I should add I do not think either are 'natural' leaders in the mould of a Carey or Kernahan, however I do expect that they do at least show some leadership

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

I wonder If we really are tanking.

Sometimes I hope we are just so that I know next year we cant possibly as bad as we have been this year.

I have made my views against tanking well known but since there have only been a few positives to come out of this shocking year I am starting to hope we are.

If we waste those picks in the draft there will be hell to pay.

I know that I will look like a huge hyporcrite(spelling?) if i suddenly change my views on the subject but the more I think about it the positives are starting to outweigh the negatives to tanking.

The one thing that is stopping me jumping on the tanking bandwagon is that we are CARLTON and we play to WIN

The team will be trying its guts out to win the last few games. We are a big chance to win at least two.

Cest la vie
Sh*t happens
Que sera sera

Good on em if we do.

And if we don't it's because we're not good enough.

And then we'll get some picks.

It's simple isn't it??

Nightcrawler - a fantastic rant!

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I support Carlton, Fulham and I'm an accountant - my mate calls me a 3 time loser.

[quote]You’ve used 130 words to say “losing football games is bad for future attendances and this impacts on the club’s revenuesâ€

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bortaS bIr jablu'DI', reH QaQqu' nay'
-Old Klingon Proverb

Hypocrite....close enough

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

Nah - I reckon your just worried about your position because of how non-sensical some of Mark's posts are...

Great post nightcrawler.

Ok, I was going to let it go, but seeings you stuck your hand down the hole now you're just begging for it:

[quote="BlueMark"]‘It is good for the club!â€

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

BM , im not ridiculing you... you did it to yourself....

Nightcrawler i tried to make your post my new signature but it wouldnt fit.

Excellent post all the same..

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Should also add that just because StKilda have been a crap side for 120 years of their existence doesnt mean theyre more crap than us today.
In case you havent noticed BM because i know your head is up in the clouds and the air is very thin up there...

Were at the bottom right now.
StKilda have a very talented list full of early pick talent.
We have a huge debt ( it willo be addressed) but StKilda are on the way to another ONE MILION DOLLAR PROFIT and their debt is just about wiped off.
Would they have wiped that debt off and made those kinds of profits with a team that was perennially 10th??????

When youre selling something BM.. you get the most money for selling something that people want.The simple demand and supply.TV stations and corporates want to support StKilda but not North...
StKilda = talent=exciting football = $$$$$$$$$
North/Carlton= dour footy limited talent= Hard times...

Crap lists that try hard is not what people want to pay money for.

Who wants to watch Wayne Arthurs go down in the a closely fought 5 setter second round of a Grand Prix tournament in if you can watch Nadal ???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

You should check out Warren more often!

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Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

I wouldn't be too pissed off if Mark Athorn & Tim Powell were given on ball duties for our remaining 4 games...

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#DonTheStash