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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:03 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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im certainly in the 3rd group.

i think the players, coaching staff and match committee have all been equally as poor this year and that is why we are in the current plight we are in.

the players need to show more heart (not all of them mind you) and have a red hot go. i dont mind kids making mistakes aslong as they are having a dip. The senior players like Houla, Campo etc.. have no excuses.

the coaching staff need to stop making excuses and accept some of the blame. many inclusions and game day tactic decisions have baffled me this year with alot of them being reactive and not isntinctive.

the match committee needs to grow some balls and drop senior players if they arent performing i.e. campo, houla, scotland etc...

together they equal the whole problem and no single group is to be blamed for the mess we find ourselves in.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:14 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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SB, I include Camporeale in the group because IMO he hasn't done anything noteworthy this year as of yet. He hasn't stood to lead the team, he hasn't tried to lift, all he does is run behind players and look for the handball instead of running forward to present as an option.

I'm not Whitnall's biggest fan but he has had an ok year, certainly nowhere near what he's capable of, but better than last year.

But in itself is not enough. For the 2 highest paid players, we demand more and I should think as supporters we expect it of them.

And when they fail to put in 100% then I think it's legitimate to start to give them stick.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:20 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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One point about the North players group....Carey ran that group not Pagan...Carey and his prefects dealt with certain players and pagan didnt have to worry about it. North had player problems with several young players not enjoying Pagans style but Carey and his cronies put down any players wanting to step out of line.

I think this is why Pagan is dissapointed in Carltons senior players and why Synbad may have a point about overall leadership at the club..I think Pagan expected more from his senior players and that included dealing with players issues and supporting his ideas rather than challenging them...

Priority picks aside, tanking aside..we wont see Pagan at his best until we get some team leaders who can deal with player issues and allow Pagan to do what he does best and thats coach..

Grant Thomas may be the reverse...great with players, popular, solves issues but not so hot on the planning, tactics etc...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Elwood Blues1 wrote:
One point about the North players group....Carey ran that group not Pagan...Carey and his prefects dealt with certain players and pagan didnt have to worry about it. North had player problems with several young players not enjoying Pagans style but Carey and his cronies put down any players wanting to step out of line.

I think this is why Pagan is dissapointed in Carltons senior players and why Synbad may have a point about overall leadership at the club..I think Pagan expected more from his senior players and that included dealing with players issues and supporting his ideas rather than challenging them...

Priority picks aside, tanking aside..we wont see Pagan at his best until we get some team leaders who can deal with player issues and allow Pagan to do what he does best and thats coach..

Grant Thomas may be the reverse...great with players, popular, solves issues but not so hot on the planning, tactics etc...


That's a great post Elwood. Unfortunately our on field leaders seem to see their role as being representatives of the Carlton Players' Union and spend their time making ambit claims about player conditions rather than the Carey model where you accept the authority of the coach regardless of whether you agree with him and in doing so instill some guts and discipline in your playing group.

Sydney Blue wrote:
The fact that Denis Pagan cant even get the guys tackling and doing the simple things - Is why I dont like him. Didn't like him when he was at North - He under acheived there. Hated it when we bought him for $800k per year and will continue to dislike him in the future regardless of what limited success he will acheive. I say limited because we are going no where


So when a player gets his chance to lay a tackle he comes to the conclusion that because he doesn't like the coach he's not going to go hard?

And this is a problem with the coach?

Because he didn't talk to them nicely?

Where does the player's responsibility begin and end? According to this sort of crap they don't have any.

Fair dinkum some people in here make running a football team sound like it'd be better done by a group of Nimbin freaks. "I'd really like you to try a bit harder Scotty because it might be like really beneficial for all of us you know?"

There'll always be a place for player input but if you want to win flags using the player empowerment model (this has happened once in the modern era) then you need a team full of mature champions who are giving it one last crack. Considering our current list I'm happier sticking with the other model (that's worked for every other season) thanks.

Whether people like it or not football teams are at their best when each individual has the courage to follow a set of rules and instructions. Andrew Walker did this when given the task on McLeod & Akermanis and he's had the vast majority of us raving about those two performances. By following the instructions he was given he's developing as a player and learning more than he would if he joined the rest who wanted to do it their own way.

Unfortunately many of our players don't have that courage and unless they find it quickly they'll be joining Eccles and Plunkett at Ballarat in a few months time.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:22 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Pagan underachieved. 2 flags is underachieving.

Some people have no idea about how many fcators have to go right just to win a flag.

Should have won 3 but the Nth p[layers kicked themselves out of it against Adelaide - guess that was Pagan's fault too :roll: (or maybe the AFL had instructed pagan to make sure Adelaide won -best for the comp and all that).

2 flags is a brilliant effort - how many coaches have won flags again across the history of the AFL? Jarusa help me out here. And how many have won more than 1?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:23 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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There will be no sacking the coach. We made our bed re-signing him way too early now we have to lie in it. We're stuck with him for another 3 years so live with it. We'll get rid of him then after he has lost his 4th group of players.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:24 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Actually Danny they wouldn't have won 99 if it wasn't for that softc#$k Kouta.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:25 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher
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Ok, so planet Earth sucks. But footy's not played on Mars (yet), so we have to accept what we've got.

The focus should be how do we fast-track sorting this out? And I believe the answer lies with the media - let the media apply pressure on the supporter's behalf.

This is news that'll become old news very quickly if the media focus on it and the club is forced into managing (not covering-up) it to a conclusion.

PS - I wonder how the big red planet affects your kicking...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:28 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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TheGame wrote:
Actually Danny they wouldn't have won 99 if it wasn't for that softc#$k Kouta.


Well, I guess we shouldn't have won the 99PF then should we. The Bombers were that good...

They were the soft ones that day.

:roll:

How do you know he's going to lose his 4th group of players? Sounds like you don't like the authoritarian stuff either TheGame. Can't handle it perhaps? Well, unfortunately, some CFC players are like that, Pagan will bring in players who are mentally tough and can take it. If you look at our flag winning sides of the 70's and 80's, there's very very few soft players in there. Even skinny David Glascott, he loved getting down and dirty. Compare them to our side....

What comparison...complete contrast.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:31 pm 
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Rod McGregor

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:56 am
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CS wrote:
Ok, so planet Earth sucks. But footy's not played on Mars (yet), so we have to accept what we've got.

The focus should be how do we fast-track sorting this out? And I believe the answer lies with the media - let the media apply pressure on the supporter's behalf.

This is news that'll become old news very quickly if the media focus on it and the club is forced into managing (not covering-up) it to a conclusion.

PS - I wonder how the big red planet affects your kicking...

The last thing we want is to prompt the media to ask the Blues whether there is a crisis. The denial would be the news that would legitimise the assertion.

And a statement from a footy club that the coach has its full support is invariably seen as meaning the opposite.

Collo is handling this. The Board and the football department are unified in their belief that the draft penalties have nobbled the playing list. This is an obvious show of support for the football department, and any discontented players would do well to heed it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:32 pm 
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John Nicholls

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So a few players have had their noses put out of joint because Pagan was brutally honest and told them what he thought of them?

Big deal.

They are professional footballers who are exposed to praise and criticism at any stage of their careers.
If they can't handle a decent spray from their own coach, then they shouldn't be playing football at all.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that Bannister and Scotland were two of the few players that copped it from Denis.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:46 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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dannyboy wrote:
2 flags is a brilliant effort - how many coaches have won flags again across the history of the AFL? Jarusa help me out here. And how many have won more than 1?


23 (? it was a quick count) coaches have won 2 or more premierships.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:49 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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That shocker of a coach Parkin won 4 flags, 3 for Carllton.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:54 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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No Parkin could coach his problem was he does not believe in the drafting the AFL introduced - even now (hard him chatting about a week ago) he thinks it is wrong so he drafted older bodies but those days (and especially with smaller lists) were over. So he became a liability to this club because he refused to embrace the draft (same as JE and others at this club0.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:55 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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23 coaches Jar, so now i ask, how many coaches have there been?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:55 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Remember after the WC victory Denis kept on saying there was '....no ceiling on these young players, they could be anything...." (Yeh, maybe ski divers, pilots or even ski instructors) maybe he heaped too much praise on these blokes too early?? It's a hard call, he had to say something positive after winning 4 straight games, but did that fill their heads with images of grandeur?

Back to the drawing board for 2006...hey, there's our new slogan!! :P


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:57 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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dannyboy wrote:
23 coaches Jar, so now i ask, how many coaches have there been?


A lot! Especially at the least successful clubs. :wink:
http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=aflrecords&spg=coaches

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:17 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Oh come on! - sheesh the only time I want something from you and this is what I get !, okayI did want that TBV badge - hey am I allowed to even say that? TBV TBV TBV TBV TBV TBV TBV - but other than that - Oh and a beer, I always want a beer - even from you...) anyway thanks footgeek





NOT!!!!

I am going to use my enormous clout (I said clout) and have you kicked off the official site - wel all right for the good of the club i will not, not this time anyway!l

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:31 pm 
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Rod McGregor

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TheGame wrote:
That shocker of a coach Parkin won 4 flags, 3 for Carllton.

I for one don't minimise Parkin's contribution. I admired him greatly. He was in the unfortunate situation of having to coach Carlton during 2 stints during Elliot's reign. At least he was able to count on Elliott to go beyond the call of duty in signing up some important players (Williams, Brown, Bradley and Silvagni and others), but he meddled in other ways too.

In 1993, Parko almost took us to a flag despite us being out of the finals the year before.

Recently he wrote about the 1995 premiership. He noted that the seeds were sown after the unexpected loss in the Semi-final to Geelong in 1994, despite Couch, Bairstow and Hocking being unavailable. He said that after that loss, Bradley and Williams accepted reluctantly that their roles had to change. In Williams' case, this meant that he had to surrender his iron grip over the centre. Ratten was given more of a go there and Williams also changed with Brown, going forward more. In the 1995 Grand Final he kicked 5. Bradley accepted that he had to be more accountable for his opponent.

Parko was also lucky to have a group of elite, older players who were capable of good leadership. Sticks, Bradley, SOS, Diesel, Dean and others were at a stage where they could see the dream of a premiership slipping away. They committed themselves to winning in 1995. He was able to relax the reigns and "empower" the playing group. But then again, if you had someone who had the integrity and the authority of Sticks coming to you and assuring you that the privilege would not be abused, this would not have been an immense leap of faith.

After that, Elliott surely hindered Parko's efforts. His declaration that all of the premiership players would have a job for life and that rebuilding was not a word used at Carlton were examples of this. As Harry Madden was the favourite player of Elliott's daughter, he had to be retained. The most Parko could do was banish him to the 2nds until he saw the writing on the wall. Elliott's use of the paper bags and his war with the AFL were others. Elliott's hamfisted attempts to bludgeon Hamill into remaining was not particularly helpful.

The failure to draft youth after 1995 was no doubt largely caused by Elliott. But it is a legacy of Parko's reign that endures.

Could history suggest that Parko failed to take back the reigns when Sticks departed? Allowing the players their head in 1995 was a successful management stategy. It showed that flexibility in management styles can reap rewards. But did Parko err by leaving that stategy unchanged despite changes in personnel and circumstance?

Could Pagan take a leaf out of Parko's book and empower the players? Or would that be a mistake given the lack of senior players who command respect? Are the senior players willing to adapt their games as Williams and Bradley did in 1995?

So, Parko did well in often difficult circumstances. But that doesn't mean that Pagan ought to duplicate his methods.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:24 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Jarusa wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
23 coaches Jar, so now i ask, how many coaches have there been?


A lot! Especially at the least successful clubs. :wink:
http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... pg=coaches


311 men have been coaches of VFL/AFL teams, in 464 coaching 'stints'.

22 men have coached multiple premierships.

that is 7.1% of all coaches.

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