I asked you to come up with reasons to backup your claims that we had a list that could have been competitive in 2003 and this is the best you could come up with ?????

Absolutely laughable!!!

Pick the side for me using the players that Pagan had at his disposal in 2003?

Show me the disgruntled players and then tell me what they have done elsewhere?

Methinks my analysis might just have shocked you as much as the more reasoned observer......

It was diabolical!

Perhaps whilst your thinking about a response perhaps you might like to addresss my earlier question re the "Ferals" who voted Elliott and Co out?

What camp were you in?

Discuss the legacy that Bigjack etc left?

Another viewing of the list might prove sobering again!

Sorry mate just taking the piss out of you, just like you did to Synbad..i had to have a bit of laugh

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

I'm glad Sydney Blue has given up (or so it seems), because he's dug a hole so deep that I can no loger see him

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

I don't think Sydney Blue expects us to be world beaters, I think he is just sick of these massacres that have become the norm during Pagans reign. Essendon* are a more talented side than us, every team is but they are not a 100 points better than us.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

I understand where you are coming from TG but Sydney Blues facts and arguements are almost absurd

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

Sorry, but there is no almost about it.

The notion that a CLub which was virtually trading while insolvent should take the AFL on in the Supreme Court in a probable multi-million dollar gamble with at best only a 50-50 chance of winning is ludicrous ... specially when they had evidence of guilt from one party and the CLub had earned the wrath of all other Clubs in the competition who while not necessarily rapt with all the rules relating to salary cap, drafting etc, certainly do NOT in the majority want them scrapped. If Carlton had taken them to Court they would have gone there, as they would have had no choice. 15 Clubs wanted blood, thanks to one former President who was dumb enough to pay a one year player (who by the way was an injury riddled has-been on whom we wasted another high pick) under the table.

THIS IS THE REALITY AND IF YOU CANNOT ACCEPT IT THEN PERHAPS YOU DESERVE THE STATE OUR LIST IS IN

I have accepted that you voted in the AFL's b!tch. I don't have to like it though.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Something else for Sydneyblue to chew over re his view of the depth of the Carlton list when Pagan took over..

Fox just showed the Pt Adelaide game in 2000.Remember, we had won 13 in a row before Kouta had his major injury.Burgoyne kicked a goal after the siren to give them victory.

It was interesting to look at the Carlton side that day.Any realistic observer would acknowledge that list management these days is essential and with that a reasonable spread of 22-24 year olds is a must.

In this particular game we had in that range....

Whitnall 21
Houlihan 21
Massie 20
Murphy 24
Beaumont 24
Franchina 22
Hulme 23
Culpitt 22

Now we are talking TWO years only before Pagan arrived!

Where are the players to take us forward?

The product identification?

Whitnall aside(and some might argue) no future leaders,drivers!

If you want to know why we are struggling,look no further than this damning statistic!.A complete void!

To further exasperate this situation was a clear lack of development of the "class of 2000".

Any wonder that Pagan has struggled...No picks and a lack of future leaders and soldiers!

To expect Dennis to have any reasonable success until he has been able to mould a side of his own chosing from the ground up(i.e juniors) is fanciful!

Where is the messiah coach Brittain now coaching and show casing his abilities?

Baggers problems go back to Parkin the way he chose to manage the list when lost the fire in his belly. Look at that 2003 side and can anyone tell me who was the leadership group?? Who was the group that decided the entire clubs trainin schedules etc. THE PLAYERS NOT THE FITNESS COACH OR MATCH DAY COACH.

Pagan lost the players aka Beaumont, Manton and co because he tried to be a leader or the coach he tried to instill discipline and hard work off the field. These fellas egos were bruised cuz they were no longer the king pins and preferred to sit there and eat donuts with their lattes than lift weights.

But all that is the past Pagan has a proven record of spottin talent and developin it. Anyone who cant see that hasnt watched Under 19's or senior football for 20yrs. What was the under 19's grand final record at North under Pagan??

People need to learn patience and need to realise that our list is the worst in the AFL and draft penalties are havin an impact on us. But they are penalties that WE DESERVED and goin to court and arguin them would have been absolute b/s.

So in that thought what would have been different about fightin these penalties and askin the court to sanction our cheatin and loosin in the spectacular fashion we did on the weekend (if we tanked which i doubt) ? Both are cheating? Cheating the TPP should leave a sour taste in our mouths exactly the same way as tanking does.

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Can smell the gf its there for the taking we are the form side

Really some of the stupidity on this thread really puts me on shaky territory with the moderators if i was to engage....i think others are doing a good job sticking it up people like Sydney Blue.

I once saw Elle McPherson walking down Chapel Street...i wanted to sleep with her but i couldnt bring myself to asking her out... i now regret i never did put the hard word on her cos i think she would have said "Yep for sure big fella"......

Elliot is like that... he may have gone to court and brought down the whole system ... we would not really know if he would have fought it in court and courts are a trcicky thing,If any of you have ever had the oppostunity to go to court the first thing your lawyer will tell you is nothing is guaranteed in courts...
So anyway... we dont know what Elliot would have done or not done... (His court record recently as well as his business record havent been to flash... ).... what we do know is he gave away all our early picks because "We do not rebuild".... he brought in players like Corey Mansfield and O`Reilly...
and he did cheat the salary cap and we got bent over for it.. and justifably so.,
He has been caught cheating 2 years earlier with Braddley when some genius staffer left a sticky on Braddleys contract with something like "Please refer to other contract"... the AFL had already been leniant with our stupidity...

The club was run by the Keystone Cops....

Takes a long time to turn things around from there...

Noone says this board is perfect but at least they have sought to bring some sound business sense to the club.
Denis has done the same with the footy department.

Question???... What happened to Brittain after he was unceremoniously dumped by Big Jack himself???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

After 2002, I fully expected that it would take 10 years for the club to fully recover. I must admit that I was one of those people who heralded the false dawn from our results in the Wizard Cup and building on from last year.

Looking at the past 3 years in hindsight and as a whole, I would think that we have another 2-3 years of rebuilding on and off the field just to become competitive. That makes the original 10 year timeframe from '02 just about right, as much as i hate to admit it.

I still think that we will start to improve in 2007 and show real promise in 2008.

2006 will be a bad year. bottom 4 finish, but good draft picks for us.

Round 21 showed what a rabble Carlton is, but even in a rabble there are players that will form part of the new Carlton.

The best thing that Denis has done for many of the recycled players of 2003/04 is to make them into top VFL players.

Plenty of the blue retreads will be gone after the end of season cleanout.

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My Blue Heaven

I do have other things to do you know.

I tell you what I will be the first person to state I am wrong when this side starts playing competitively and we stop getting belted by 100 points until such time happens the blame sits fairly and squarely with the coach and the coaching staff - They cannot seem to get this side playing consistant footy from week to week . The fact still remains when Roos took over Sydney they were Wooden spoon favourites and he has had them playing tough competitive football from day one have not missed the finals and this year will most likely win it. Adelaide last year were and absolute basket case under ayres - Craig has come in and turned that side around . No PP no low draft picks just good administration and coaching .

So you can sit there and use the draft penalities as an excuse all you like if it makes you feel good about it . You can have this dream that the great DP will lead us to the next flag thats fine I dont have an issue with people following their dreams . I have an issue with the team I have followed all my life finishing 16-15-11-16 and no sign of going anywhere soon.


PS isnt nice to have a thread that hasn't mentioned the dreaded 'T" word

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The problem Sydney is that you seem to believe that Sydney and Adelaide's situation is/was exactly the same as ours.

Where was Adelaide/Sydney's inept administration?

Where was Adelaide/Sydney's laughably overpaid mediocre playing list?

Where was Adelaide/Sydney's draft penalties? (Remember that pick they traded for Jolly? What if Carlton had had that pick?)

Where was Adelaide/Sydney's lack of onfield leadership? Mark Ricciutto won a Brownlow not so long ago and is an All Australian year after year. Anthony Koutoufides couldn't win a ham in the Koo Wee Rup Bowling Club Raffle and yet we had to go with him because we didn't have anyone else. Sydney could raffle the captaincy between half a dozen guys so blessed are they with quality senior leaders.

The problem is you seem to think all clubs are in an identical position at any given time and as a result any success or otherwise must simply be because the coach is crap.

All that says is that you're not terribly perceptive or completely stupid. Which would you prefer?

Considering you seem to believe that with the proper coaching Jon McCormick and Simon Beaumont were going to lead us to a premiership I'm sorry to say it's looking like the latter.

A fairly unconvincing response Sydneyblue,you have successfully failed to answer any of the arguements put up against your unsubstantiated claims.

Nothing on the playing list that Pagan inherited,the same one that you suggested could be competitive?...who were they?

The "ferals" who voted Elliot out?

You still continue to throw up Adelaide and the Swans.Are you aware of their lists at the same time?

I have to go out,but have a lookat this list of middle rand players from 2002 and then compare it to what Pagan was left....

Bassett(25)
Burton (24)
Biglands (25)
Tyson Edwards (26)
Goodwin(25)
Kane Johnson (20)
Mc Gregor (21)
McLeod (26)
Perrie (23)
Ricciuto (26)
Stenglein (22)
Welsh (26)

This ignores...
Hart,Clarke, and Smart

Have a look at the Carlton players in the same bracket!

Then to make things worse nothing in the draft,no trading no pre-season!

Do you get the point!....we had nothing!

Don't be stupid 7dom.

None of those Adelaide guys were any good really - Neil Craig just made them good.

Getting misty-eyed about Jack - now I've heard everything. Elliott is the reason were are in this bloody mess. It goes deeper than the salary cap rorting it was the whole culture of we don't rebuild at Carlton, we are bigger than the draft we can just go and buy the players we need. He is a failed businessman and he did his very best to destroy the thing he claimed to love the most. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

OK -What did Elliott do that was so wrong - show me the evidence I am sure the Tax department would be interested in it . But for some reason a rort that has been splashed about all the papers has not be investigated - Hmm makes you wonder.

We could have got Jolly last year if we wanted him we had a lower pick than Sydney. not that I am suggesting we should have done it

Tell me the benifits of delisitng all those players in most cases still paying them and then bringing in the following

Bannister
Mcgrath
Morrell
Scotland
Teague
Mott
Martin
Harford
Johnson
Bowyer
chambers
Longmuir
Deluca
Clarke
Angwin

Now apart from a few cameo performances from Mcgrath Teague and scotland. the rest are total duds.
So we create an unstable enviroment for the players by sacking 1/3rd of them each year and replace them with what.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Yes Syd...none of those blokes are a patch on Hulme & Doering

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#DonTheStash

You really dont get it do you Sydney you make silly claims of how our list compares to Sydney and Adelaide.. They had good lists just needed a change of coach.. we had a crap list we tried to get a better caoch to assist but seems like it will work just needs time ..

Yes we got in players but do you realise to get talent you need to have one of two things

Low order draft picks which we have had very little to trade and of course in most cases need to retain for our own use ... so the other option trade players .... hmmm well in the class of 2002 there is not a hell of a lot of tradeable talena nd the ones we would have like to trade where all under back ended and stupidly long contracts IE Campo / Whits ect

Do you understand to trade to get someone proven and good you have to give up something eqivelent. Back in that list we didnt really have much to offer / no draft picks so what do we do to try and get something beneficial take some punts with other players and rem in most cases we have traded someone who was going to be delisted or given up a high draft pick.. if some work then we benefit but when your hands and legs are tied not much you can do.....

CIRCA 2005 - we now have some tradeable talent but i would rather keep those and see where they go... ie Walker / Waite / thornton / Simpson / fisher to name a few.. These guys will be good now we have to add to them and locate some leadership and get in some high draft choices ... maybe now some key senior players are out of contract if they arnt to old IE campo we maybe able to trade them to assist a team which is much closer to a flag in favour of getting a better long term prospect..

With the next coming years Pagan will be much more accountable but until he has something to work with and dosnt have all
his recent restrictions i cant properly judge him.

I guess knowing how bad our list was and all the restrictions we had we may have well gone with a crap coach so we could have finished last 3 years in a row instead of 15 / 11 / 16 --- umm the first 16 you put in you will find out PAGAN wasnt there so lets look at the last 3 years your best mate Britain got us 16th in 2002