Brittain took us from being Grand finalists/Prelim Finalists to the spoon in 2 years.

Pagan has kicked some life into the corpse that is our playing list. We did win the Wiz this year, remember? OK it was a dead cat bounce, but a win's a win. And don't give me that all the other teams weren't trying. West Coast were busting their arses to win that one, and we got over them.

Pagan's achievment is exactly what you're criticising him for: removing a bunch of 100+ gamers who were on the list simply because of their "experience". They did nothing to justify keeping them beyond having their names on Navy Blue lockers. The clean-out that Pagan has done over the last couple of years should have been done years ago, but JE boasted "Carlton don't rebuild", remember?

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Yep, we should've been contenders.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

Your thoughts are amazing!!!
Forget the draft picks...you have to be kidding. If we had Wayne "stickfat" Brittain still at the helm we'd probably be relegated to the VFL

This is where your dislike for Pagan clouds the issue for you. You can't possibly ask people to ignore the draft penalties and then ask us to compare Pagan's win/loss record against Brittain's. Any comparisons must take into account extraordinary factors that effect one person's performance and not the other.

It's pretty much standard practice in all industries. No reason why football should be exempt.

No I am asking what has he brought to the club what has he acheived what legacy will he leave other than getting rid of 100+ game Carlton players . Give me something anything what has the great man done at Carlton. surely a man of his greatness would not let the loss of two 18 year olds worry him.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

If there was a relegation system we would have been relegated under Pagan to - Dont forget that.

Britttain =spoon= sacked
Pagan=spoon = planning for the future

WTF

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Well there isn't a relegation system because you can't go out and buy the best talent, you have to draft them so we have to wait our turn unlike the past, why even bring that up if your so eager to forget Pagan's achievements in the 90's. At least thats history/actually did occur where as relegation doesn't even exist. WTF!

With the list we had/have I don't think anyone could've done better than he has. If we miraculously finished any higher we'd just be rooting ourselves because it would only be a false dawn because we clearly aren't good enough.

Did your gravy train get cut off by Pagan or something?

Ok ill name them...

He has smashed a group of players that think they are greater than the club.. and have been an albatross around the clubs neck for the last 4 years....

Hows that for a grand achivement??
Personally i would have cut FAR deeper....
Were finally a fresh side.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I didn't bring up the relegation Rhys did.
Our 2005 list wasn't good enough either
I why because you dislike someone do people assume thye have done something to you

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

And don't forget Brittain was ready to let go of Fevola and Houlihan for nothing before Pagan came along. Eccles, Gallagher and Allan were required players back then ... imagine the state of our list if he'd had another year or two to totally destroy it in the name of looking for players with the required 'work ethic'.

We'll never know if any coach can turn a team around in the same situation because it is unlikely to ever happen again. I'm with the others ... how can you look at our progress, or lack thereof, without mentioning the draft sanctions, the very mechanism by which you recruit and also trade.

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In WADA we trust

And what did that acheive where did it get us we could have been in the same position we are now without all the slashing and burning . all those players you talked about would have retired and moved on - And we may have had better access to draft picks last year as well- Think about it

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Sydney, Sydney, Sydney.

that was so then.

This is now.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

So Pagan rescued the careers of one guy who finished the year leaning up against a fence pretending he was not injured and the other guy who ended up at the Bullants. Some acheivement

Dont talk about work ethic teams with good work ethic dont get smashed by 10 goals plus every second week

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I'm bored we have to talk about something

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Problem is, SB, that your tune is always the same. You still haven't logically argued against Pagan.

The cleanout was long overdue, and there is no reason, other than sentiment, to keep the 100 gamers you constantly talk about.

Yes, those players did their service. But by the time Pagan came along, they'd been playing with their thumbs up their arses for at least a season, and they'd got to the point that they felt that they didn't need to do anything further for the club exactly at the time when the club needed them most. You don't help the club move forward, then you're baggage. We don't need more baggage.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Sorry SB, but you asked what Pagan has brought to the club and then you compared his win/loss record to Brittains, while at the same time telling us to ignore the draft penalties.

If you think the draft penalties were only the loss of "two 18 year olds" then I'm afraid you really fail to grasp the draft system and the ramifications of those penalties.

I would still like to hear what you would have done differently. Who would you have appointed instead of Pagan? What would your plan have been? Keep these champion 100+ game players and do what??? Who would you have drafted/recruited? How would you have turned the club around in 24 hours and made us into a premiership contender??

So these two players haven't given us any service at all over Pagan's time ... are you serious??? Fevola's worst season was 2005 and he still kicked 49 goals under an injury cloud for the worst team in the comp. Houlas went backwards this year but was in the top 10 for our B&F in 2004. For players who were marked as 'gone' by Brittain, they've managed to contribute infinitely more than the recruits he brought in over his (admittedly) limited time.

The work ethic principle was preached by Brittain ad infinitum over his tenure. He wanted solid, tough footballers ... and when they complemented our champions coming to the end of their careers we had a couple of decent seasons. However, once the likes of Bradley, Silvagni and McKay faded, we didn't have anyone with the required talent or flair to take their place. At least I see the likes of Fev, Houlas and Walker as types to win games with skill and brilliance.

Brittain took a top 4 team to a wooden spoon in the space of 12 months. Somehow, his reputation amongst some has grown since he has left the club ... maybe fortunately for him at the time the hard work due to something called draft penalties was just beginning.

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In WADA we trust

and while doing that somehow managed to give the club enough of a face that we attracted investors and increased memberships.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You can add Jarrad Waite to that list of players Brittain was ready to let go. I heard McKay interviewed in 2003 and he was asked about Waite and his first comments were "yeah, he's lucky to still be at the club, there was alot of doubt about his future at the end of last year, but we had a change of coach and Waite was kept on" - or something to that effect.

Let's face it, if Brittain was still around, Sam Cranage would be our captain!!

Here's my theory:

*We were a very good side in 2001

*Injuries destroyed the team in 2002, and resulted in a wooden spoon. If we hadn't lost key players for major parts of the season, our performance would've been much, much better in 2002...though losing Silvagni was a mjor blow which would never be fixed, thus whilst we were good in 2001, losing him meant we wouldn't be as good in 2002, but better still than we were

*Brittain was the patsy in Elliot's bid to save his own hide

*Many players, who got on very well with Brittain, were pissed off such an action was taken by Elliot. Pagan had lost those players from the start - as a result 2003 was worse than 2002

*With a lack of draft picks at the end of 2003, Pagan cleared out the players who were either not good enough, or who despised his presence, and replaced them with recycled players he knew wouldn't have the same axe to grind. He had no choice. Some times you have to tread water, otherwise you drown

* 2004 was the first time we had real draft picks, so the treading stopped and the swimming began in 2005 -- if you've been treading water for a while it takes time to get back into the rythm of swimming

*2006 should see us swimming with a bit more rythm and purpose, and we should be more confident with our strokes