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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:15 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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fevolaaaa wrote:
In regards to the article, I don't really understand the sentiment in this thread..to me he isn't bagging Pagan, moreso bagging the board for being too late with their directive. I don't particularly see anything wrong with it except it didn't really need to be said, it's in the past


Agree about the need for said comment, all it has achieved so far is division amongst the fans. Of course, that is if those were really his words? Or did Caro take some journalistic license? *shock* *horror*

Was it "Smorgon said that ordering Pagan to stick to a youth policy had probably come two years too late."

or "Smorgan admitted that the club deciding to follow a youth policy probably came two years too late"?

And Malouf saying that Pagan took a pay cut for his new contract surely just shows that the club and Pagan were mindful of the financial position we are in, and Pagan successfully appealing to keep all his assistants was the reward for him taking the paycut with no niggling?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:19 pm 
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formerly Josh Kaplan

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You guys call on the club to start promoting youth..
You openly criticise Pagan for not playing the young kids in the past
You blame the board for being backwards looking, insular and accuse them of being closeminded and fundamentally not transparant.

Then the first burst of transparency in a number of years is shot down by the majority on here..
The boards candid objection to Pagans game plan is seen as signs of the club being torn apart at the seams..
The positive aspects of that article (re: club employing the youth policy supported at all levels) is obfuscated by bitching, whingeing and whining.

Some of you will never be happy..


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:28 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Agreed Caz & Josh…

Sinbagger I don't think those particular comments are a pat on the back, nor are they blaming or fingerpointing - just a statement of where we're at & want to be. He did also say that Pagan's work with the kids has been encouraging (but that didn't make your list)

Geez, I was just pleased that on day 1 he did something proactive with the media.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:38 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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I agree with CK. I think it can be seen as an admission by the board that on-field success is a shared responsibilty. The recycled experiment didn't work so the board stepped in and said lets change tack. I can't really see an issue.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:46 pm 
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John Nicholls

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Can't see an issue with the article.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:05 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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I agree but not with CK, never with CK, brrrr mummy?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:24 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Stuffed if you do....stuffed if you don't.

Woulda..coulda..shoulda etc etc.

Can we just get on with it? .....it's early in the season; there's some promising signs; and I'm still excited about the future.

But that's me.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:33 pm 
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Ken Hands
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Man 6 pages of reasoned arguement, without personal attacks on the posters, that must be some type of TC record.

I must say that I predominatly have to agree with Blue Vain on this issue.

I think:
1. The interview was the first sign of transperancy that we have seen from our board in a long time.
2. It states clearly that the Board is setting the paramters for the club, which is what the bulk of people on this site have been wanting since the early elliot days.
3. He is talking "our" language - Youth policy
4. He is recognizing that DP's coaching style had been too one dimensional and static over the past few years and perhaps not suitable for our list or the development of our young players.
5. His no comment on the Collo questions in light of his openess to all others make one assume that there is something to hide.
6. Talking about a the payment of coach/players in public is never a good sign (although here I am guessing it was to give the image of finacial responsibility.
7. I would like to know, if all is this is in the public domain, then what is it exactly that the other Board members signed a confidentiality agreement.
8. It is better to know for sure that we have a team of coaches, governed by one guy with a great football brain and a penchant for developing youth (even if it was in the 80's).


In the other article about Diggins being pissed that the number 5 gurnsey was given without her permission, man if that is true, I would hate to be on the Carlton board. There were several things in that article that lifted my respect for Collo even though I have not been a great fan of his while at the helm.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:56 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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slow_mo wrote:
I agree with CK. I think it can be seen as an admission by the board that on-field success is a shared responsibilty. The recycled experiment didn't work so the board stepped in and said lets change tack. I can't really see an issue.



I dont see it as shared ..I see it as its your fault Denis, change your style, and the coach on notice..dont remember any of this present board advocating a youth policy..when we won the wizard cup it was full steam ahead with the retreds..and here's a new contract Denis you little you messiah....Smorgan has given himself an out if Pagan fails by this little media outburst...good politics for the man himself but thats all...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:49 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Elwood Blues1 wrote:
slow_mo wrote:
I agree with CK. I think it can be seen as an admission by the board that on-field success is a shared responsibilty. The recycled experiment didn't work so the board stepped in and said lets change tack. I can't really see an issue.



I dont see it as shared ..I see it as its your fault Denis, change your style, and the coach on notice..dont remember any of this present board advocating a youth policy..when we won the wizard cup it was full steam ahead with the retreds..and here's a new contract Denis you little you messiah....Smorgan has given himself an out if Pagan fails by this little media outburst...good politics for the man himself but thats all...




having spoken to these people , i totally agree.

Its not like they wanted to go youth and denis said no at the time...
now that we know we had to go youth we can blame someone else.
we can also say if things are slow on the uptake its because we allowed denis to do what he wanted but now weve fixed it.

bullshit!!!

The clubs philosophy is to not languish at the bottom.
but how can you not when you dont have a list???

Short sightedness.

i would have prefered if smorgon said "as a club we should have gone youth earlier.."

but you cant expect someone like that to be upfront.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:28 am 
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Rod McGregor

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Mrs Caz wrote:
fevolaaaa wrote:
In regards to the article, I don't really understand the sentiment in this thread..to me he isn't bagging Pagan, moreso bagging the board for being too late with their directive. I don't particularly see anything wrong with it except it didn't really need to be said, it's in the past


Agree about the need for said comment, all it has achieved so far is division amongst the fans. Of course, that is if those were really his words? Or did Caro take some journalistic license? *shock* *horror*

Was it "Smorgon said that ordering Pagan to stick to a youth policy had probably come two years too late."

or "Smorgan admitted that the club deciding to follow a youth policy probably came two years too late"?

And Malouf saying that Pagan took a pay cut for his new contract surely just shows that the club and Pagan were mindful of the financial position we are in, and Pagan successfully appealing to keep all his assistants was the reward for him taking the paycut with no niggling?


Mrs Caz couldn't agree with you more.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Funny thread this one. :lol:

Add me to the BV side of the argument.

Worth remembering though that the only people who give a flying @#$%&! about what Smorgon might or might not have said are the freaks in here. The rest of the world have forgotten the articles were ever written. For those of us who do hang on every fart and burp that eminates from a navy orifice some of us swing one way and others another. The only way to keep everyone happy is to say nothing at all...hang on... that's not on either.

I didn't agree with every little detail of Smorgon's comments but that was never likely. It never is. Same with Collo, Pagan, Parkin, whoever. My views are formed in a very different crucible to theirs.

What pleased me was that he quite clearly said that the board had to take some responsibility for the lack of youth policy (although everyone's selective memory seems to forget the loss of SIX young players and a preseason pick due to draft penalties) and that he was clearly committing the club to youth from here on. That's now on the public record and he can be drawn and quartered if the board doesn't stick to that position.

When Smorgon was first elected he said something about the club just needing to win games and it sounded awfully like Dean Laidley a couple of years ago suggesting the Kangas couldn't go for youth. That clearly wasn't what he meant based on these later comments and if I take anything away from his recent statements it's that.

He's obviously not the ideal choice for President at the moment (though he may surprise over time) but considering the list of possible contenders at this time I'd say we might as well stop the wrist slashing, accept that he's there for now and stop the bitching and moaning (at least until he genuinely flowers something up).

Football communities (like any communities) are complex structures and any given statement by any individual is likely to be laced with half a dozen agendas both conscious and unconscious. Apparently I'm a "Pagan supporter" because I believe he needed time to do his job and time to do it without his hands tied by the legacy of the past administration. Pagan will be held to account based on what he does over the next 18 months not on what happened in his first 2-3 years at Carlton. Smorgon should be held accountable for what happens under his watch as President rather than any perceptions we might have of him at the time he enters the role. The choice now is whether to support the incumbents or keep bitching.

I'm going to give them until the end of next year. If I can see obvious improvement on-field (looks to be happening already but I want to see us take the next step by then) and off-field (new revenue streams, cash-flow positive, MC Labour Park issue sorted etc) then they'll get my vote for another go after that. If not then I'll look elsewhere.

As for Lorraine Diggins and the number 5... :lol: :lol: :lol: :cry: :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:12 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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listen GW you just expressed my view, so come back and express your own next time! 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:33 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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dannyboy wrote:
listen GW you just expressed my view, so come back and express your own next time! 8)


If you edit out your support for this position it might have a better chance of getting taken seriously... :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:08 pm 
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Robert Walls
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If I read the article without trying to look at hidden agendas (which may or may not be there), I come to similar conclusions as Blue Vain and GWS.

I don't see much wrong with what the article says, if taken at relative face value. I don't think it is bagging Pagan, it is stating some things that many think should have been said/done. Members calling for "openness" surely cannot be too critical of Smorgon for talking a little. And I don't read anywhere that he says it was his own personal initiative. He was speaking for the Board, whatever the makeup and/or upon whose initiative certain decisions were based.


Just like I did with Collo, I will give Smorgon a go.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:26 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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and me Headplant, and me :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:37 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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....and me.....(we've got a choice anyway?)....not really.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:57 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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GWS wrote:
Worth remembering though that the only people who give a flying F@%&#! about what Smorgon might or might not have said are the freaks in here.




Exactly...a good percantage of whom would list "synbad says" as their favorite game.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:02 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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look... lets not mince words... the board are missing something... we can all see it.

They're missing a figurehead... a visionary..... a man of power....

they're missing a Tyrant

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:05 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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The kitchen at the soc club could do with a new fryer

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