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I'm excited! Pagan is Great and Gibbs is Gold!
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Author:  Cinque [ Mon May 22, 2006 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  I'm excited! Pagan is Great and Gibbs is Gold!
Good Morning to all,

I was at the game yesterday and I still have faith in Pagan. The thing that I saw with a lot of other supporters is that it isn't the coach.... Its the players. We don't have the cattle. No matter how you turn it around we do not have the man power to go forward immediately. Yesterday I witnessed a under - manned St Kilda trounce our beloved baggers. Plain and simple. Even with all of their ommisions.... We do not have the players to match it with the real contenders. I've only heard fantastic things about this years draft. I first heard about it two years ago. They're calling it the best draft ever with the number one Bryce Gibbs - said to be the best player in ten years to come to the game. I know the process hurts but stick with it. We get one more round of good picks - especially this year and we'll be shooting for a premiership in the next four years. We lack a real defence more then anything else. A better midfield wouldn't hurt either. But look at the kids we've got coming through and I can genuinely say that I'm excited.
Author:  The Tyrant [ Mon May 22, 2006 10:51 am ]
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switched cigarette types ey, Jack?
Author:  kingkerna [ Mon May 22, 2006 10:52 am ]
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I won't address your Pagan comments too much, but would you be happy or unhappy if he resigned?

On Bryce Gibbs - I am sure he will be a good player one day - but don't over estimate how good he is. Have you been watching Glenelgs results? Brett Backwell (remember him?) will beat him for the best and fairest there - so at the moment this puts him as an average VFL player.
Author:  Speakers [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:04 am ]
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Well obviously Backwell has pulled his little finger out :lol:

Cinque, you obviously have no idea about football, so just give up while you're ahead. Ever heard of the term 'game plan'?
Author:  Sniff Wilson [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:08 am ]
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hmmmm, seems to reek of the 2005 version of Just wait till we get marc murphy....now it is just wait till we get bryce gibbs.....who will it be in 2008??? sick of this shit....sick of losing....sick of being disappointed...sick of no support for the few players that try their guts out every week....sick of players going unrewarded who try their guts out...sick of "supporters" who do nothing but bag the club, bag the only consistent players we have had...sick of people rabbiting on that they know what is best for the club...sick of the same old excuses/threads/comments......

sick of it all.....

not good enough....end of story....we arent good enough....and i cant see it changing. but i will be there, every week, cheering......hoping......wishing.....
Author:  Cinque [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:10 am ]
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In relation to Pagan, I want you to know that I think long and hard before giving my support to any coach. Before he came to Carlton he was a dual premiership coach. He didn't win one after the other like other coaches because their players seem to be peeking at the one time. He won them both over three or four years. He managed to stay in the finals almost every year as well. North Melbourne was and still is a club with no money and happens to be in a similar situation to Carlton. Yet he did rise above all. Now further to all of that. When he came to Carlton we had no draft picks for two years. We had an injury list the size of a small country and to boot no money. He has managed to un-earth some good players - Fevola being the most prominent. Our list is in much better shape than when he started with a lot of kids who are still under the age of nineteen. Tall kids I might add. With no draft picks it must be so difficult to re build a club. I mean we had an ageing list. We had the heros from our last premiership all calling it a day from 2000 to 2003. I mean even without the draft penalties we would have still had to rebuild. All the penalties really did was postpone it for two to three years. So anyway I take all of this into consideration and ask myself. Had we put in the modern day champion coach.... Leigh Matthews. Would anything be different? My answer plain and simple. No. So in answer to your question I would be bitterely dissapointed if Denis Pagan left the club along with a lot of other supporters. I said it last Friday. If by the end of next year we are still wallowing at the bottom of the ladder (With no glimer of hope) then it may be time to look at other avenues. But for the time being you need to look long and hard as to why we are where we are. And everyone can critisie Pagans decissions untill they're all blue in the face. But the reality is that no one who comments is there to make that judgment. A couple of years ago. Possibly our favourite coach - David Parkin said these pentalies would put Carlton back up to fifteen years. I think Pagan is doing better then what the prophetic Parkin foretold.
Author:  Blue Vain [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:11 am ]
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There's one problem with a strong draft.

We get a quality player............but so does everyone else.
Author:  Cinque [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:15 am ]
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I understand that Blue Vain. But look at St Kilda. We litterally got smashed by the club we will be in the next three to four years. Be patient and realistic. With or without Denis Pagan we wouldn't be in any different position. It takes time and I'll be there along with all of you every week showing my support. Fev said it last night.... "Stick with us, we'll come good."
Author:  Sniff Wilson [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:16 am ]
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let me just give you a nice little comparison...

Anthony Stevens
Glenn Archer
Wayne Carey
Craig Sholl
Shannon Grant
Brent Harvey
Mick Martyn

compared to

nick stevens
bret thornton
brendan fevola
heath scotland
lance whitnall
ryan houlihan
kade simpson


bit easier to win a flag with list a yeah>???
Author:  kingkerna [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:19 am ]
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Nicely written BNZ, I guess my point is that we can't look at 2-3 players from a so called 'super draft' making that much of an impact in our current situation. We could get some good players and at the same time lose others that don't want to stay with us
Author:  Wet Willie [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:19 am ]
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Cinque wrote:
I understand that Blue Vain. But look at St Kilda. . ."


St Kilda..??? I thought we were playing the Harlem Globetrotters..!!! :shock:

Sure looked that way to me... :oops:
Author:  Cinque [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:21 am ]
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Sorry.... I must have missed something. Did Glen Archer start out as a fantastic player? Or maybe Wayne Carey did....? It all took time. And in the end Pagan got it the formula to work. Let me ask you BNZ.... Whats the solution then? Where did we go worng?
Author:  kingkerna [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:29 am ]
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Cinque - I think what is most annoying is that we were 7 goals down at 1/4 time and DP did nothing, absolutely nothing to try and change what was happening. He endorses our backmen kicking backward 30 metres when we are 10 goals down. I just felt really sorry for our players (except the super soft ones) that are trying to implement a game plan that doesn't suit their abilities - I mean we have to get the ball inside 50 to try and score and we couldn't even do that! What happened to moving the ball quickly and kicking to a nice long lead?
Author:  Cinque [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:37 am ]
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Firstly the players don't decide on the game plan - the coach / s do. What would you have suggested DP do yesterday? I mean Nick had four different guys on him. He still managed nine. If the players aren't there then what do you do? I was at the game yesterday and all I could see was St Kilda making it quite obvious that we do not have the players required to win a premiership. I could understand if we had a team of genuine champions who weren't performing - but we don't. I felt for the players as well. I also had and have empathy for our supporters. But we just don't have the players. I can't see in other solution but to go out there and make a real go of it week in week out. Finish where we finish and keep getting the high picks. If you look at St Kilda with their squad they in theory should have already won a premiership.... But they haven't. I'd be more dissapointed with Grant Thomas than what I am with Denis Pagan.
Author:  Cazzesman [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:38 am ]
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kingkerna wrote:

On Bryce Gibbs - I am sure he will be a good player one day - but don't over estimate how good he is. Have you been watching Glenelgs results? Brett Backwell (remember him?) will beat him for the best and fairest there - so at the moment this puts him as an average VFL player.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

He's 17 and picking up 20 possessions of a HBF in a middle of the road team. 19 of those hit a target. He played virtually all year in the Glenelg Seniors last year at just 16. He is not a man/child like Hurn either. He is a 83 kg kid. Alot of the time he playing against ex AFL players and giving them a real 'touch-up'

Come back to the real world kk before it is to late. :roll:

Regards Cazzesman
Author:  Cinque [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:41 am ]
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I've got to agree with you Cazz. I have lunch at the same place some assistant coachs do and they say this guy is as close as we'll get to a player as valuable as Judd. To me.... Enough said.
Author:  kingkerna [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:42 am ]
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all I am saying is that don't expect too much from him, do you rate the SANFL as much better then the VFL? If not then you just have to look at someone like Setanta who has had some good games at that level to realise that it will be a big step up even for someone like Gibbs.

As far as the real world goes, I am not denying that he will a great player - but it will take some time - especially if we are the ones that get him and he is surrounded my average players
Author:  2ndeffort [ Mon May 22, 2006 11:59 am ]
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Yeah I guess it will take time to turn kids into champions, and we dont want a quick fix and top up on rejects because that sets us back a couple of years. So in the mean time we are sick of losing so we're going to sack the coach mid season and change the 'game-plan' because that will sort it all out.....right????

You cant have one without the other. if you say we want to play kids and build a new team, then suck it up and take the pain!!! If you say we dont want to draft rejects to stem the bleeding then suck it up and take the pain!! If you say we want to go with the youth policy then take responsibility for it and wear the hurt. Yesterday was the hurt of underdone kids being mauled by a genuine premiership contender. This is the cost of playing kids. A 'more attacking gameplan' wouldnt have saved us. The only thing that will save us is time for the kids to turn into men. How long do we have to wait? I hope not long but who knows. Talk about sacking the coach and changing the gameplan is like shifting the deckchairs on the titanic. Unless you are going to get Chris Judd as the new playing coach with Luke Ball and Barry Hall as his playing assistants then new coaches and gameplans wont help. Time in the gym and gametime is the only thing that will help our team. We are like the Bad News Bears in 1998 at the moment. Who knows how far away the 'threepeat' might be.

Patience my blue brethren....patience!!! Our kids were totally outclassed yesterday.
Author:  Cinque [ Mon May 22, 2006 12:03 pm ]
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My thoughts eactly 2nd.
Author:  2ndeffort [ Mon May 22, 2006 1:09 pm ]
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Love Dennis or hate him, you have to laugh. This from the press conference:

Quote:
And while Fevola was one of the few shining lights for the Blues, Pagan said he would stick with most of his under-performing youngsters next week and beyond.

"We've got no other alternative - there's no superstars hiding in the cupboards down at Royal Parade - I can tell you. We've searched everywhere for them," he quipped.
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