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The list of duds debate
http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10638		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  4thchicken [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  The list of duds debate
If, and its a big IF (though I still hold out hope) a few of our 'duds' actually make it by the end of the year where does that place Pagan and the debate on his coaching skills?

In supposed duds I'm talking prendergast, wiggins, sporn, davies and livingston (ie were on the list pre-pagan). Say if 3 (13.6% of starting 22) of the players become solid contributors and cement themselves into the team (say prendergast, wiggins, livingston) - would that be a result of pagan's coaching? or in spite of it?
Author:  Wet Willie [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:47 am ]
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***sound of crickets***
Author:  BlueWorld [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:50 am ]
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Could they cement themselves into a quality team though?
Author:  Tractor Boy [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:52 am ]
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Put it down to of life after CFC... Play well for or against the coach means another club might give me a lifeline..
Author:  Wet Willie [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:55 am ]
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***Hello?...(Hello?)........Echo?...(Echo?)...***
Author:  Speakers [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:24 pm ]
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I believe Simon Wiggins has made is quite clear kudos for his development should be directed at the Bullants and Mitchell. Pagan hasn't done a thing.
Author:  dannyboy [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:38 pm ]
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I thought simon made it wuite clear that players need time in the VFL to improve and should not be played continuously in the AFL 8)

which is a point I made weeks ago because Clarkson had said something similar and Connelly had said something remarkably similar.
Author:  Speakers [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:42 pm ]
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Quote:
I've been developing through time in the VFL, under Barry Mitchell down at the Bullants
Author:  dannyboy [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:44 pm ]
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meaning Denis is using the VFL and Barry to help develop the players just like other coaches

like you said in another thread, you can read anything you like into statements.


but it could be read that coaching panel wants him to wortk on something, he dos that under Mitch in the VFL as part of his Development plan.
Author:  Speakers [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:55 pm ]
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Quote:
like you said in another thread, you can read anything you like into statements


No, it's about realising that since he arrived at the club Pagan has done bugger all in terms of youth development.

Name one player Pagan has made, other than Fevola?

Houlihan is still a squib who now can't handle the tag, and Walker is only playing better because Pagan has given him TOG in a settled spot.
Author:  Keyser Soze [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:19 pm ]
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Speakers wrote:
Name one player Pagan has made, other than Fevola?


I would suggest that Kade Simpson has become a better player.

Considering he started with "Donuts" in his first game I guess he could only get better.
Author:  Speakers [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:26 pm ]
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Quote:
I would suggest that Kade Simpson has become a better player


Oh you don't think going from Mr Puniverse to having some semblance of build on him has had an effect? Give me a break. I suppose next you're going to say Pagan force fed the boy.
Author:  bluechampion [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:46 pm ]
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Speakers wrote:
Quote:
I would suggest that Kade Simpson has become a better player


Oh you don't think going from Mr Puniverse to having some semblance of build on him has had an effect? Give me a break. I suppose next you're going to say Pagan force fed the boy.


But you don't think that his use of him in the backline has made hima better player? In 5 years when Simpson is tearing up the AFL he'll be a better player because he can play other positions than just on-ball. Look at Stevens. He never got the grounding in any position other than midfield and he's hopeless as a forward or backman.
Author:  woof [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:54 pm ]
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Speakers wrote:
I believe Simon Wiggins has made is quite clear kudos for his development should be directed at the Bullants and Mitchell. Pagan hasn't done a thing.


If I was Barry Mitchell I'd be spewing if he said that publicly. Won't help him find a job.
Author:  dannyboy [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:13 pm ]
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so any player who is better its because they made themselves better/Mitchel/time/etc... any player not better is Pagan's fault - is that the gist of your argument?
Author:  Speakers [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:23 pm ]
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What is the jist of your arguement Dannyboy? How about you lodge a convincing arguement to me supporting the virtues of Denis Pagan, in particular the great job he has done developing our young players in the 4 odd years he's been at the club. Go on Dannyboy, you do that.

Until you can show me some semblance of proof Pagan has developed a lot of youngsters at the club, I'll happily believe that Simpson was always a talent and his development was inevitable once he added the kilos to his frame, and that Wiggins, who has played most of the past 12 months in the reserves under Mitchell has developed not because of Pagan. Thta's kind of a no-brainer really when you consider he has played in a different team under a different coach - but I suppose that piece of logic went over your head.
Author:  Speakers [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:28 pm ]
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Quote:
But you don't think that his use of him in the backline has made hima better player?


Where's the proof in that? Go on, show me! I dare you.
Author:  blueblood95 [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:26 pm ]
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How long is a piece of string?

Prenda, Sporn, Wiggins and Deluca are HACKS!

The best we can expect is solid efforts.

Good football sides dont carry passengers.

There is no point in getting by
Author:  Knackers [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:10 pm ]
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Too many flower make an assessment on stats and players they DON’T see on TV.

I noted in another thread that until we can prove that we CAN actually develop players, I will have nothing but sympathy for players like Sporn, Davies, Wiggins, Livo, Pendergast etc. IMO, the club AND Pagan are miles behind in this area.

What is really frustrating is that there appears to be no real plan for these guys. Is Sporn a forward, defender, midfielder, wingmen, tagger? Who the f**k would know because he's never been tried in any one position for an extended period of time and assured that the position is his. Last week Sporn earns a spot in the side through good form in the Bullants as a ‘ball winning’ midfielder… he is elevated and gets 20 minutes running on and off the ground, most likely to be dropped this week. The club does not seem to know what they want from him… same with Wiggins, same with Davies. Is Prenda a KP, ruck or ruck-rover or does he just get to run with the mobile big men. When these blokes do get the 'opportunity' their biggest fear is not the opposition, it's the runner!

The few players who have actually made marked progress such as Walker and possibly Houlihan were given specific roles and assumedly assurances of game time and consecutive matches. Livo was persisted with (out of necessity) and started to improve... what did we do? Drafted Martyn. Again last year he got a good go at full back, did nothing wrong until we played the Bulldogs where there was supposedly no match-up. F**ked him for the season.

Simpson, Bentick, Carrazzo, Betts etc. played there best footy when allowed to settle into a role. Many are still spending too much time in and out of the team, on and off the bench and in a host of different positions.

Maybe the could have made it, or maybe they ARE hacks, but the club needs to decide if they are part of the future as players or horses on the selection table carrousel and act accordingly.
Author:  GWS [ Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:13 pm ]
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Gee that's a good post Knackers... :wink:
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