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Pagan??
http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11701		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  bagger95 [ Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Pagan??
Sop we are back on the bottom. It was only a matter of time before we worked our way there again.

So it seems that we would be no worse without Pagan and we are no better off with him. If we are going to have to pay him $2M anyway, lets get rid of him for someone younger....ASAP
Author:  Kouta [ Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good idea!

Why hasn't someone else thought of this?
Author:  4thchicken [ Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
The question is whether the board has the balls to do something about this.
Author:  steve [ Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I can't see the AFL allowing it, now that they are seeing our accounts on a monthly basis and have Mike Fitzpatrick as an observer on our board.

Sorry fella's, until we start making a profit we are stuck with Pagan. Realistically that means some time in '08 before a new coach comes in.
Author:  jim [ Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
steve wrote:
I can't see the AFL allowing it, now that they are seeing our accounts on a monthly basis and have Mike Fitzpatrick as an observer on our board.

Sorry fella's, until we start making a profit we are stuck with Pagan. Realistically that means some time in '08 before a new coach comes in.
We'll never make a profit while he's there because eventually we'll never have any members. One the other hand, sacking him might get the members back we lost this year, which would equate to what we would owe him. short term pain for long-term gain. Two more years of this and we will be a basket case.
Author:  Kouta [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:25 am ]
Post subject: 
In case you haven't noticed we're already a basket case and we don't have the money to pay him out whilst employing another one. I think the Football club made a profit last year but when the cost of running PP was taken into account we made a loss.

Or so they said! :wink: :roll:

Carlton’s Financial Results for 2005
Quote:
The Carlton Football Club announced a net profit of $188,519, a marked improvement on the loss of $2.157million in 2004. The Football Club revenue increased by $3.462million in 2005 to $19.795million while expenses increased by $1.116million to $19.606million.

Quote:
The Carlton Cricket & Football Social Club announced a net loss of $1,117,526.


I guess we don't make profits because Pagan is coach! :roll:
Author:  steve [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:47 am ]
Post subject: 
And we are looking at a $1.5 million loss this year and we have to find the $2 million that we are supplying as part of the MC Labour Park redevelopment.

If you had to prioritise our finances, I doubt that paying out Pagan's contract we rate in the top 5 right now.

I could see the club paying it out part of the way through 2008 when it's not so much, but only if the club is profitable by then. Like it or not, Pagan will be the coach for all of 2007 and probably at least half of 2008. That's just the economic and political reality of where we are right now.
Author:  malbi [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:58 am ]
Post subject: 
We could have 4 #1 draft picks by then. There is always an upside...
Author:  blueslander [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:08 am ]
Post subject: 
He hands control over to the players anyway so no need for another coach, just sack him and give the players control. We'll can be the red blues, the first fully communist AFL team.

....

Man hasn't this topic been done to death yet?
Author:  TruBlueBrad [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:12 am ]
Post subject: 
jim wrote:
steve wrote:
I can't see the AFL allowing it, now that they are seeing our accounts on a monthly basis and have Mike Fitzpatrick as an observer on our board.

Sorry fella's, until we start making a profit we are stuck with Pagan. Realistically that means some time in '08 before a new coach comes in.
We'll never make a profit while he's there because eventually we'll never have any members. One the other hand, sacking him might get the members back we lost this year, which would equate to what we would owe him. short term pain for long-term gain. Two more years of this and we will be a basket case.


Speaking for myself we won't never have any members.

How do you know we won't lose just as many members by sacking him? Some may see it as a gross waste of money to sack a coach we're paying until 2008 and refuse to give their money to a board who would do that.
Author:  camel [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Well after heading towards our 3rd wooden spoon in the blink of an eye I hope the board has the kahunas to, at the very least, get an independent guru in to give an evaluation of our football department. If Smorgon wants to back up his claims that the way to financial success is by winning games then he needs to convince the board that our footy department needs to be accountable for itself.

Clearly we can't be any worse than we already are.
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:14 am ]
Post subject: 
But realistically, is it worse to "earn" 2 (maybe 3) spoons in 5 years, or the same amount over 10, with mediocrity filling the gaps?

I know which I prefer. Sure it's hard, but it's concentrated anguish and pain, not the drip, drip, drip of long-time losership, which thankfully we haven't been subjected to over the years.

Pagan's not the coach I thought he may be, but he's laying a strong and viable on-field foundation, and when we win our 17th, we'll be able to trace it back effectively to him.
Author:  camel [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:16 am ]
Post subject: 
At the end of the Kouta 50-50 article…
http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/real ... 13088.html
Quote:
…Carlton president Graham Smorgon … indicated there would be a review of the football department at the end of the season, and forecast "substantial changes".
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:18 am ]
Post subject: 
camelboy wrote:
At the end of the Kouta 50-50 article…
http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/real ... 13088.html
Quote:
…Carlton president Graham Smorgon … indicated there would be a review of the football department at the end of the season, and forecast "substantial changes".


YAY! Bye Trout! Bye Libba! Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out!
Author:  camel [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:21 am ]
Post subject: 
With any luck!
Author:  Sydney Blue [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:59 am ]
Post subject: 
This article here is cruel but a very good one

http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/real ... 13109.html

This line here is what the club should be looking at it all right getting picks but at times you have to start winning ,

From supporters' perspective, the talent deficit is surely the greater evil. Were Carlton winning half the time, there'd have been another 10,000-plus at yesterday's game, the club would have at least another 5000-6000 members, more corporates would be on board, and it would not rely, for its solvency, on the kindness of (AFL) strangers.


The club needs to start winning we cant afford another season at the bottom of the ladder waiting for Pagan to go off into the distance

Youth Policy Smorgan you should start in the coaches box :evil: :twisted:
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:08 am ]
Post subject: 
True, SB, and that areticle also says:

"...a socialist competition designed to reward the weak with access to the best young talent. Of course, Carlton is a special case because it was effectively removed from the early rounds of the 2002 and 2003 drafts for salary-cap cheating, an ill-considered and draconian judgement by the AFL Commission that will cost it millions of dollars, both in lost revenue and bail-out money required to keep the Blues afloat."

I think some in the wider media and community are starting to realise just how harsh and disproportional (given our predicament on-field at the time) the penalties were, and still are.
Author:  jim [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:09 am ]
Post subject: 
JuzzCarlton wrote:
In case you haven't noticed we're already a basket case and we don't have the money to pay him out whilst employing another one. I think the Football club made a profit last year but when the cost of running PP was taken into account we made a loss.

Or so they said! :wink: :roll:

Carlton’s Financial Results for 2005
Quote:
The Carlton Football Club announced a net profit of $188,519, a marked improvement on the loss of $2.157million in 2004. The Football Club revenue increased by $3.462million in 2005 to $19.795million while expenses increased by $1.116million to $19.606million.

Quote:
The Carlton Cricket & Football Social Club announced a net loss of $1,117,526.


I guess we don't make profits because Pagan is coach! :roll:
It's one good reason. Don't think simple, although it's not unusual for footy supporters of all kinds. He's a significant reason as too why we've been an embarrassing rabble for 4 years. Eventually the members have had enough, as we've seen this year being 5000 down. Equates to quite alot of money, a seven figure sum. You can only serve up sh1t for so long before people get sick of giving. We get worse each year, win/loss wise, despite our players actually getting better. Give a club re-newed hope and they jump back on board. History shows that. Worked it out yet?!! Maybe the atom bomb is needed for some. Don't care about the finances, just want to win some games. If that happens the finances will look after themselves.
Author:  jim [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Kaptain Kouta wrote:
But realistically, is it worse to "earn" 2 (maybe 3) spoons in 5 years, or the same amount over 10, with mediocrity filling the gaps?

I know which I prefer. Sure it's hard, but it's concentrated anguish and pain, not the drip, drip, drip of long-time losership, which thankfully we haven't been subjected to over the years.

Pagan's not the coach I thought he may be, but he's laying a strong and viable on-field foundation, and when we win our 17th, we'll be able to trace it back effectively to him.
Get real. Our youngsters get better in spite of him, though experience of training, playing and maturity.
Author:  TruBlueBrad [ Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Which players have got better?
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