The excessive nature of the punishment has been compounded, too, by changes to the priority-pick rules. As it stands, the Blues will not get an additional early pick (i.e., picks one to five) even if they finish with two wins, 12 months after they won only four games. Last year, they disqualified themselves by winning four-and-a-half instead of four games.

In the event that they do cop another unwelcome spoonful, the past five years will read as follows: 16th, 15th, 11th, 16th and 16th. It's an extraordinary record of failure in a socialist competition designed to reward the weak with access to the best young talent. Of course, Carlton is a special case because it was effectively removed from the early rounds of the 2002 and 2003 drafts for salary-cap cheating, an ill-considered and draconian judgement by the AFL Commission that will cost it millions of dollars, both in lost revenue and bail-out money required to keep the Blues afloat.

Also, I dont think we have heard the last of the PP situation, especially if we remain last

Niall was one of the many dim-witted journo's who were dancing on our graves when we were punished by the AFL. He loved it. He didn't go as far as the fat prick himself who wanted an even heavier penalty, but he rejoiced nonetheless.

The only media person I remember criticising the penalty was Tony Shaw and for all his drawbacks and idiotic traits, he was the only AFL "identity" that criticised the heavy-handedness of the penalties.

Tony Shaw is a knob but I will always respect him for his stance.

Also, I dont think we have heard the last of the PP situation, especially if we remain last

Gerad Healy was also another who mentioned that the penalties were draconian. I'm not sure whether the pain from the penalties have fully kicked in just yet. I still think we are paying the price for our drafting between 1997 - 2001.

True, Healy did say that back in 02. He was also disgusted that we weren't even allowed to TRADE INTO THE FIRST TWO ROUNDS .

Is that a hunch or have you heard something?

That would take a brave AFL to give us an additional pick at this stage.

TBB, only a hunch. However, when I compile a case for reconsidering Carlton's potential to qualify for a pre-1st round PP, it is very compelling.

It is not just the on-field results that will influence this. I think the AFL are seriously concerned by our situation both financially and with member/supporter numbers on a sharp decline. I think they will want to resurrect our club and the Carlton brand before any more long term damage is done to the club. And this is not just Carlton specific but even the impact it will have on the competition as a whole. The only significant avenue left to pursue, after so many years of mediocrity, is to have a competitive team that can challenge again. A team worth watching and following.

Our plight has gone beyond recruiting corporate geniuses to build revenue streams and other corporate strategies, it is about compiling a team that will again draw Carlton supporters and the next generation back to the club. The AFL can try and stem the bleeding with grants and interest-free loans or give us access to a PP that should probably justifiably be ours and return us to a reasonable cycle of success/failure. Not never-ending mediocrity! To disqualify us from this PP for only half a game, especially when this is a transitional year for the new rules is unreasonable.

It is only a hunch . And really it is up to the board to fight for it and keep it on the agenda with the AFL. The financial assistance may have compromised our negotiating power though.

EB, if that is the motivation then so be it. I don't expect him to have the Blues interest at heart, only self and corporate greed. But it makes financial sense to have a club like Carlton, who used to be capable of drawing 80-90K against the other big Vic clubs in the H+A back firing.

I don't know if it is too late though. I know a lot of people who were quite passionate Carlton people who have turned their backs on the club and the competition. Sick of how sh!t we are and the artificial nature of the competition.

At the time of the penalties, I bet the AFL thought that we are such a big club that we can ride out an extended period down the bottom. We have enough support, and passionate support at that, to see it through. The only problem is that supporters and corporate support don't mind riding out 2-3 years of tripe and wont drop off in that period so much as long as after that amount of time there is some genuine improvement. Not 5-6 years like we are on now!

And don't think of the die-hards like us here, we are knowledgeable enough about AFL to realise that there is some faint hope but for your average supporter, they see a club always losing and struggling and the corporate world dont want to be associated with that. It takes its toll eventually and the crowd on Saturday is an indication of that.

I feel strongly about our eligibility for a pre-1st round pick especially if we remain on 2.5 wins and believe the case for it is indisputable. But its not up to me, its up to the club