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Winning is Better Than Losing
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Author:  DIAMOTISM [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Winning is Better Than Losing
There are certain people on this website who believe if they repeat the same thing over and over again and clock a zillion post counts then they must know everything. I laugh at a lot of the posts on this site. Some people are way off the mark and obviously are hangers on at the club and have no association within and wish you to believe otherwise.

It also disappoints me that Carlton supporters can not come here and talk about Carlton winning last weekend without the same boring people popping their heads up and saying the same old garbage. D**kheads, D**kheads…….woops sorry my Tourettes just kicked in.

Well to these people who want to finish last check out the following from the current premiership side. Here is the nucleus of the Sydney Swans team who were instrumental in winning last year’s premiership. The list also contains the selection number they were drafted.

McVeigh - No. 5
J.Bolten - No. 8
Crouch - No. 8
Hall - No. 19 and then traded
Ablett - No. 24
C.Bolten - No. 33
O’Laughlan - No. 40
Goodes - No. 43.
Buchanan - No. 52
O’Keeffe - No. 56
Scheider - No. 60.
Kirk - rookie elevation
Bevan - rookie elevation
Kennelly - rookie elevation
Jolly rookie elevation (Melbourne);

Put these players in a Carlton jumper and we would be top four material. IMO, the least talented player in this group of premiership players is the player picked at No.5 – McVeigh.

It is the draft picks that you select in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Rounds that are the most important. Picking up quality here is where teams get their depth and become strong. No team can focus on individuals because it wouldn’t be called a team then.

The formula.....
Premiership side = An even spread of above average players who won't lay down.

We need to win games to get that winning feeling and winning culture back to the club and work mighty hard at recruiting. Why should we lie down and lose when we can use the team we have now and the next couple of drafts to build a premiership team that instills a winning at all costs attitude.

I have spoken to many of the players from the club during the past 3 days and not one of them wants to finish last. To me that is fantastic and shows that the rebuilding of the club is taking off.

Go Blues!!!!

Cheers,

Ronnie
Author:  kingkerna [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
POST OF THE WEEK

Short and to the point, everyone is a bloody expert until presented with facts.




Don't know about the naked man avatar though
Author:  killpies [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good post. But logic will get you nowhere. :wink:

Personally, Here is my preferences on the whole tanking debate.

1. NO MORE SPOONS EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES
SUCCESS = PREMIERSHIPS - SPOONS
IMHO

2. If we can avoid the spoon and get a priority pick this year - while playing with the grit we did yesterday - then all donations thankfully received, if not so be it.

3. I would rather take 20 years to win another flag than take 10 years and get several spoons in the process. I don't think you can go from worst team to best with just draft picks alone, it is cultural as well. Otherwise StKilda would have won the last 3.
Author:  jimmae [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Great post.

McVeigh is only 21 though, and he looks set to be a big part of the Swans line up.

It's been said several times, but a spread of reasonable quality makes you very competitive in the midfield, but the top 2 or 3 can win you premierships IMO.

Judd, Cousins, Kerr, for example - they may not have the runs on the board but anyone who thinks Quintein Lynch is even an average forward is kidding themselves.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Quintein Lynch
Image
My psychic said I was a small forward in a past life.
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Put Barry Hall in most teams and you wouldnt be far from the eight....take him out of the Swans team and they wouldnt make the eight.....
Pick 19.....might get you a Barry Hall every 100 years....
Author:  Blue Vain [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winning is Better Than Losing
DIAMOTISM wrote:
Some people are way off the mark and obviously are hangers on at the club and have no association within and wish you to believe otherwise.


DIAMOTISM wrote:
I have spoken to many of the players from the club during the past 3 days



:-D

Come on DIAMOTISM, how can you argue low picks are not worth gold.
I've been told that we're on the bottom because we were excluded from 2 drafts in the early rounds.
Now you're telling me early picks are'nt really relevant to success. :P

Surely it's got nothing to do with coaching or list development. :?
Author:  No1Blue [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
Put Barry Hall in most teams and you wouldnt be far from the eight....take him out of the Swans team and they wouldnt make the eight.....
Pick 19.....might get you a Barry Hall every 100 years....


Get off it elwood lol...

We took Brendan Fevola at pick 38...

Oh yeh i spose thats also a 1 in 100yr thing also... not to mention Kade Simpson at 45, Brad Fisher at 72, Ryan Houlihan at 73...

Then again Luke Livingston... boy, that kid has become a star hasnt he?.. A real genuine No.4!...

Yeh... :roll:
Author:  woof [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winning is Better Than Losing
DIAMOTISM wrote:
There are certain people on this website who believe if they repeat the same thing over and over again and clock a zillion post counts then they must know everything. I laugh at a lot of the posts on this site. Some people are way off the mark and obviously are hangers on at the club and have no association within and wish you to believe otherwise.

It also disappoints me that Carlton supporters can not come here and talk about Carlton winning last weekend without the same boring people popping their heads up and saying the same old garbage. D**kheads, D**kheads…….woops sorry my Tourettes just kicked in.

Well to these people who want to finish last check out the following from the current premiership side. Here is the nucleus of the Sydney Swans team who were instrumental in winning last year’s premiership. The list also contains the selection number they were drafted.

McVeigh - No. 5
J.Bolten - No. 8
Crouch - No. 8
Hall - No. 19 and then traded
Ablett - No. 24
C.Bolten - No. 33
O’Laughlan - No. 40
Goodes - No. 43.
Buchanan - No. 52
O’Keeffe - No. 56
Scheider - No. 60.
Kirk - rookie elevation
Bevan - rookie elevation
Kennelly - rookie elevation
Jolly rookie elevation (Melbourne);

Put these players in a Carlton jumper and we would be top four material. IMO, the least talented player in this group of premiership players is the player picked at No.5 – McVeigh.

It is the draft picks that you select in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Rounds that are the most important. Picking up quality here is where teams get their depth and become strong. No team can focus on individuals because it wouldn’t be called a team then.

The formula.....
Premiership side = An even spread of above average players who won't lay down.

We need to win games to get that winning feeling and winning culture back to the club and work mighty hard at recruiting. Why should we lie down and lose when we can use the team we have now and the next couple of drafts to build a premiership team that instills a winning at all costs attitude.

I have spoken to many of the players from the club during the past 3 days and not one of them wants to finish last. To me that is fantastic and shows that the rebuilding of the club is taking off.

Go Blues!!!!

Cheers,

Ronnie


Quite intersting you use Sydney as the example. They compete on level terms with Carlton except for the extra million in the salary cap. Now lets see Carlton and Sydney were after Barry Hall, we could not compete. Sydney won the flag last year, Ball retires, lets go after Spider Everitt missed out last year but will get him this year.
SYDNEY HAVE RORTED THE SYSTEM. The living away allowance is a sham. EVERY players should get an equal share of the living away allowance. THEY DON'T, BARRY HALL, NICK DAVIS, TED RICHARDS and EVENTUALLY SPIDER WILL GET IT. RORT THE SYSTEM!!!
Author:  Mickstar [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  DIAMOTISM
Ah !.........a man of my own heart.You are right on the money DM.

We continually hear of the riches of talent in this years draft.The first 20 are brilliant,and the next 20 are damn nearly as good.If ,as all the recruiting gurus suggest,it is that good,then where is the advantage of finishing down the bottom ?All that means is that every side is gonna pickup a couple of very good players.Checkmate. No advantage to anyone.I would much sooner finish down the bottom when there were only a couple of good players,and thus gaining a clear advantage.You are spot on DM,it is the late picks when Hughes and Cazz have to be right on the money.The late picks in this draft will be more critical than ever.
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
No1Blue wrote:
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
Put Barry Hall in most teams and you wouldnt be far from the eight....take him out of the Swans team and they wouldnt make the eight.....
Pick 19.....might get you a Barry Hall every 100 years....


Get off it elwood lol...

We took Brendan Fevola at pick 38...

Oh yeh i spose thats also a 1 in 100yr thing also... not to mention Kade Simpson at 45, Brad Fisher at 72, Ryan Houlihan at 73...

Then again Luke Livingston... boy, that kid has become a star hasnt he?.. A real genuine No.4!...

Yeh... :roll:


Hall was No 1 player in the comp last season and along with Brown when fit the best forward in the comp......I like Fev like the rest of us but Hall has him well covered as a footballer and is at a different level....you have to be joking if you are comparing Fev with Hall......

Ryan Houlihan at 73. what are you on?..........that would be about right..although you would probably get an argument from a few supporters that pick 73 was too much to pay....

Hall would cost you 650K -700K a year on the open market plus about 2x1st rnders and some more...I dont see clubs paying that for Fev...
Author:  Synbad [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Winning is Better Than Losing
DIAMOTISM wrote:
There are certain people on this website who believe if they repeat the same thing over and over again and clock a zillion post counts then they must know everything. I laugh at a lot of the posts on this site. Some people are way off the mark and obviously are hangers on at the club and have no association within and wish you to believe otherwise.

It also disappoints me that Carlton supporters can not come here and talk about Carlton winning last weekend without the same boring people popping their heads up and saying the same old garbage. D**kheads, D**kheads…….woops sorry my Tourettes just kicked in.

Well to these people who want to finish last check out the following from the current premiership side. Here is the nucleus of the Sydney Swans team who were instrumental in winning last year’s premiership. The list also contains the selection number they were drafted.

McVeigh - No. 5
J.Bolten - No. 8
Crouch - No. 8
Hall - No. 19 and then traded
Ablett - No. 24
C.Bolten - No. 33
O’Laughlan - No. 40
Goodes - No. 43.
Buchanan - No. 52
O’Keeffe - No. 56
Scheider - No. 60.
Kirk - rookie elevation
Bevan - rookie elevation
Kennelly - rookie elevation
Jolly rookie elevation (Melbourne);

Put these players in a Carlton jumper and we would be top four material. IMO, the least talented player in this group of premiership players is the player picked at No.5 – McVeigh.

It is the draft picks that you select in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Rounds that are the most important. Picking up quality here is where teams get their depth and become strong. No team can focus on individuals because it wouldn’t be called a team then.

The formula.....
Premiership side = An even spread of above average players who won't lay down.

We need to win games to get that winning feeling and winning culture back to the club and work mighty hard at recruiting. Why should we lie down and lose when we can use the team we have now and the next couple of drafts to build a premiership team that instills a winning at all costs attitude.

I have spoken to many of the players from the club during the past 3 days and not one of them wants to finish last. To me that is fantastic and shows that the rebuilding of the club is taking off.

Go Blues!!!!

Cheers,

Ronnie


I actually think there are people on this site that dont post too much because they dont have much to say.. when they do post they post something out of its context.

for instance they might post how Sydney has not many champions but still won a flag...

On the other hand they didnt post that each decade nine premierships are won by clubs that have a heap of A GRADE footballers and 1 will win it without them..

Now whats important to note is the chances of winning a premiership are far greater if you have aside with gun footballers ( nine out of ten) then one that doesnt (one out of then)... i dont know about you but i go with mathematics and probability before pissing in the wind every day of the week...

But anyway.. good attempt to try and think fo something... but try and keep it in its correct context please.

thats why when you have a scientific experiment you use a 'control' sample too... it keeps things in context...

apart from all those holes in your argument you made an argument and you get kudos for typing...

Abit like a cappuccino.. alot of froth but not that much substance... but anyway.......... :wink:
Author:  BlueWorld [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
A champion team will beat a team of champions- ask any St K supporter. And ask about their losing CULTURE. Is that we want to turn Carlton into?
Author:  carlton colt [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
winning this late in the season and making us ineligible for what we need desperately (and that is getting as much early talent as we can get) is like kicking junk time goals in the last quarter for some scoreboard respectability in a game we have been smashed in the previous three and a bit quarters. what does it mean? nothing besides camouflaging how poor we actually were during the majority of the game/season.
Author:  BlueWorld [ Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Most people who know a bit about football say that we haven't been as poor as our win loss ratio suggests and weren't far away from winning several more games. Anyway the draft's supposed to be very even so it won't matter much whether we get pick 1, 2, 3 or 4. It's the ability to pick well later on and develop players properly that determines who becomes a champion team. Like turning a pick 38 into a (probable) Coleman medalist. Or getting 130+ games from a pick 73.
Author:  AGRO [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:20 am ]
Post subject: 
I love to see Carlton win.

I hate to see Carlton lose.

Ask Mrs. Agro I am the worlds worst loser when it comes to Carlton losing, I sulk, I am nasty to everyone, I kick the cat, the kids, I am not nice to be near. I hate to see Carlton losing.

I like to see Carlton win, I am worlds worst winner when it comes to Carlton winning, I'm arrogant, I am nasty to everyone (who barracks for a club other than Carlton) 8) .

Now having said that let me say this.

BlueVain and DIAMOTISM we are shit at the moment because we have a shit list - we have a shit list at the moment because of our appalling list management from the late 90s and the exclusion from the first 2 rounds of the 2002 and 2003 Drafts didn't help matters, add Wells, Goddard and Cooney to our list.

Since around 2001 the science of early draft choices is irrefutable - yes we can argue about the gems available at Picks 40 and beyond and lets be thankful we got players like Brad Fisher and Kade Simpson and Ryan Houlihan (some may not be so thankful :roll: on that one) - but you want to build a team around selections post 50 then you are a better man than I.

As for Brendan Fevola at 38 - well we nearly delisted him more than once.

I dont want to see Carlton lose any more games - I would love to see Carlton pull out a checkbook and recruit, Kernahan, Bradley, Motley, Dorotich, Williams and Spalding - but it just aint going to happen anymore.

Only way you are going to get better is get quality kids through the draft - and the only way you are going to do it is with the lower draft picks.

Yes the Draft is a lottery and you may pick up a dud - but like any lottery you need more chances to win it.

Finishing lower on the ladder is like taking a System 15 Tattslotte it improves your chances.

You dont like finishing 15th or 16th, I dont like finishing 15th or 16th - but the AF @#$%&! L put this system in place and its the only @#$%&! system there is.

You want to try and win Tattslotto by only picking 4 numbers your kidding yourself - give me a System 15.

Yes this may be a deep draft - but I would still rather have 3 picks in the Top 20 than only 2.
Author:  BrizzyBlue [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Anybody who argues that this draft is even, or who argues that there will be a stalemate situation where all clubs will pick up the same number and quality of kids, thereby negating our advantage; has no @#$%&! idea about Mathematics!! :P

Logic tells me that if we have the courage to be sussing out potential deals prior to trade week and make them happen during trade week to get more picks of these ready to rock and roll kids, we will get better quality from the pointy end of this draft. Lets face it, drafting is now a science as opposed to a hit and miss affair of only 5 years ago. Recruiters have seen the current crop play scores of times. They have the advantage of analyzing their weaknesses and strengths against all comers. The depth of this draft should be evident to all. There is, apart from the TAC, a shitload of kids already playing senior footy in WA, SA and Qld particularly. Most importantly they are starring, not just making up numbers. 8)

If we were to snare 8-10 new players of quality in the National, Pre Season and Rookie Drafts, that would do a lot more for our team than it would for say Adelaide or West Coast picking up 5-7. They have enough problems delisting the required 3 each season. The thing is they already have depth, we simply don't. Thats where we are missing out and have done whilst we have been serving our sentance. :evil:

Now I'm not necessarily saying that this draft alone will fix all our woes, but imagine if we pick up a genuine Centre Half Back, a couple of athletic Ruckmen and a fleet of Onballers this year alone, how much difference will that make for the years ahead? Mathematics!! :wink:
Author:  No1Blue [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
No1Blue wrote:
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
Put Barry Hall in most teams and you wouldnt be far from the eight....take him out of the Swans team and they wouldnt make the eight.....
Pick 19.....might get you a Barry Hall every 100 years....


Get off it elwood lol...

We took Brendan Fevola at pick 38...

Oh yeh i spose thats also a 1 in 100yr thing also... not to mention Kade Simpson at 45, Brad Fisher at 72, Ryan Houlihan at 73...

Then again Luke Livingston... boy, that kid has become a star hasnt he?.. A real genuine No.4!...

Yeh... :roll:


Hall was No 1 player in the comp last season and along with Brown when fit the best forward in the comp......I like Fev like the rest of us but Hall has him well covered as a footballer and is at a different level....you have to be joking if you are comparing Fev with Hall......

Ryan Houlihan at 73. what are you on?..........that would be about right..although you would probably get an argument from a few supporters that pick 73 was too much to pay....

Hall would cost you 650K -700K a year on the open market plus about 2x1st rnders and some more...I dont see clubs paying that for Fev...


Well if Fevola was playing for a team like Sydney, he would come close... You're saying this year Barry Hall has been streets in front of Fevola??!!

Please elwood.. :lol:

Fev still has improvement in him... he would kick close to 100goals in a top 8 side!... Just because he doesnt pick up 16marks a game... this year he has been the Full Forward of the year... Barry Hall is a CHF and it's like comparing Chris Judd to Matthew Pavlich or Hall...

Fevola and Barry Hall, while key forwards, are 2 different players... Playing in a bottom side week after week, getting double teamed... I dont think we've seen the full package from Brendan Fevola...

With the future support of No.4 pick Kennedy, Brad Fisher, Jarrad Waite and a swag of quality youngsters coming thru... with the team we'll have... Fev could certainly be top 5 players in the afl...

Barry Hall has done more than Fev so far in his career... but certainly dont underestimate how much of a star the 'Fev' is and what he is capable of producing in the future...

I wanna see our guys keep playing with the same spirit... Finishing off the season well will be terrific for the young guys...

Ever since mid-way through last year I think the players have grown alot and for 90% of the season we have been competitive... wheras last year it was something like only 40% competitive... the thing is we just havnt been able to get over the line...

Oh... 1 more thing... I wonder how much Barry Hall was worth at the saints?... He certainly got a good cohntract from Sydney but the result of playing in a better team now has raised his profile...

And isf Fev was playing for the Eagles?... With terrific support from their midfield... It's at the least something to think about... :?:
Author:  woof [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
BlueWorld wrote:
Most people who know a bit about football say that we haven't been as poor as our win loss ratio suggests and weren't far away from winning several more games. Anyway the draft's supposed to be very even so it won't matter much whether we get pick 1, 2, 3 or 4. It's the ability to pick well later on and develop players properly that determines who becomes a champion team. Like turning a pick 38 into a (probable) Coleman medalist. Or getting 130+ games from a pick 73.


Who is arguing the eveness in the draft? It comes down to whether you want 3 picks in the top 20 or 2 picks in the top 20? What do you want 2 or 3 picks in the top 20 of an even draft? I want 3 picks because we have some catching up to do and I also could not give a toss if we beat Richmond or Hawthorn. It won't mean anything to me.
Carlton Colt summed it up quite well, we are going to be playing teams in Richmond and Hawthorn who have already started to pull players out and get them ready for next year. Thank god we don't play the Kangaroos and Port.
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dont disagree Fev is on the up but Hall creates as many as he kicks and it aint all about kicking the most goals...Hall has an aura like Brown does that make sother teammates walk taller...Carey had it as well....
Hall to me is the complete footballer.....you wont pick that up at Pick 19 too often....

Dont get me wrong I'm a Fev fan and like you luv his work and spark he gives to the club and hope he is every bit as good as BBBB...
Author:  Pafloyul [ Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Great posts BB and Synbad.

Just like to point out that both Adam Goodes and Fev were drafted when clubs could only take one seventeen year old in the draft. Their final placement in their respective drafts may have more to do with tactics than a true indictment of both players value at the time.
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