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A question for the "tanking" proponents
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Author:  7dominator [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  A question for the "tanking" proponents
Whilst there seems to have been plenty of discussion on the benefits of the bonus picks it seems to me that nobody has clearly enunciated how "tanking" should be executed.

It seems to me it can either take the form of a verbal or intimated instruction or else team selection or match day coaching.

When answering this question can proponents address the ramifications that i raise..

Verbal or intimated......

1)How would you address Match Fixing charges?
2)Cover "bringing the Game into disrepute" charges?


Selection/Match Day coaching....

1)The need for an embattled Coach to get runs on the Board.?
2)How do you slow down a player battling for his position both in the side and at the Club?
3)How do you slowdown a "Kid" who has been used to being a winner throughout his junior career?
4)How do you stop a player who has always been told to give his all to the jumper?
5)How do you heal the scarring from constant losses?
6)How much harm can be caused by forgetting how to win games?

Other ramifications.....

a)Sponsors....Do you propose to refund them for loss of exposure?

B) Members....Should they be refunded?

c) Lost Match day revenue,how do we make up for this?

And one final question do "tankers" go to or listen to matches and what are they looking to see/hear given that they want a loss?
Author:  woof [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
7Dom, Do you actually think we are good enough to tank?

I'll give you an example of tanking. Fev hurt his finger 3 weeks ago which will obviously need some surgery. Clubs that want to tank would have the surgery performed immediately and write him off for the season. We are playing him.

Tanking is what Collingwood did last year.
Author:  blueboy8 [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Another tanking thread oh joy :cry:
Author:  Beantown [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
woof wrote:
7Dom, Do you actually think we are good enough to tank?

I'll give you an example of tanking. Fev hurt his finger 3 weeks ago which will obviously need some surgery. Clubs that want to tank would have the surgery performed immediately and write him off for the season. We are playing him.

Tanking is what Collingwood did last year.


I can't see anything in his post that claims that he believes we are tanking!

Just a well reasoned line of questioning I think and I'm looking forward to people trying to answer them. :)
Author:  thrylos7 [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
for flowers sake

we play the games to win and where we end up we end up.
Author:  Humpers [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A question for the "tanking" proponents
7dominator wrote:
Whilst there seems to have been plenty of discussion on the benefits of the bonus picks it seems to me that nobody has clearly enunciated how "tanking" should be executed.

It seems to me it can either take the form of a verbal or intimated instruction or else team selection or match day coaching.

When answering this question can proponents address the ramifications that i raise..

Verbal or intimated......

1)How would you address Match Fixing charges?
2)Cover "bringing the Game into disrepute" charges?


Selection/Match Day coaching....

1)The need for an embattled Coach to get runs on the Board.?
2)How do you slow down a player battling for his position both in the side and at the Club?
3)How do you slowdown a "Kid" who has been used to being a winner throughout his junior career?
4)How do you stop a player who has always been told to give his all to the jumper?
5)How do you heal the scarring from constant losses?
6)How much harm can be caused by forgetting how to win games?

Other ramifications.....

a)Sponsors....Do you propose to refund them for loss of exposure?

B) Members....Should they be refunded?

c) Lost Match day revenue,how do we make up for this?

And one final question do "tankers" go to or listen to matches and what are they looking to see/hear given that they want a loss?


7dominator,

My response to your questions are as follows:

1) No need to address match fixing charges as it can't be proved.
2) as above

1) Winning/losing one extra meaningless game at the end of the year shouldn't make much difference to an "embattled coach".
2) No need to "slow down" anybody. Just play some kids that aren't quite "ready" for AFL action to give them a taste. Experiment with player positioning as well. Don't play senior players with "niggling" injuries to get them 100% fit for the pre-season as Collingwood did last year.
3) as above
4) as above
5) Losing one extra "meaningless" game at the end of the year shouldn't have any adverse "scarring" effect on the players.
6) as above

a) Losing one extra "meaningless" game at the end of the season shouldn't have a significant effect on sponsors. In fact, I think most sponsors would be more likely to support Carlton in the future knowing that they have additional quality draftees coming through the ranks.
b) as above
c) as above

The AFL is offering free medicine to make us a force again via the priority pick, we'd be crazy not to take this medicine.
Author:  dannyboy [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
2 things

a) its not one one extra meaningless game - its every game once you get to 16 or 14 points - bhe that 1 game to go or several.

b) it seems to me we'll be fine again this year without the need to tank so my anti tanking works just as well as your tanking 8)
Author:  camel [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
dannyboy wrote:
b) it seems to me we'll be fine again this year without the need to tank so my anti tanking works just as well as your tanking 8)


:lol:
Author:  jim [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
woof wrote:
7Dom, Do you actually think we are good enough to tank?

I'll give you an example of tanking. Fev hurt his finger 3 weeks ago which will obviously need some surgery. Clubs that want to tank would have the surgery performed immediately and write him off for the season. We are playing him.

Apparently last week we were good enough to tank! We had a sh1tload of threads on it. A week's a long time in footy. See what you mean though. I'm sure Pagan, with his job on the line, won't be tanking anything. I'm sure we'll get our PP anyway.
Author:  CK95 [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good questions 7Dom.

But I think the whole 'tanking debate' seen on these pages is more 'are you hoping we lose' rather than 'how & should the club tank'.

Which is why it's becoming such a pointless argument - whether a great percentage or a small percentage of the supporter base is hoping for the PP really is not going to have any great effect on the result of matches.
Author:  Megaman [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
I asked a few mates the yesterday this very question, how would you go about getting players to purposely play below 100%, couldn't happen.
The coach and MC could stuff with the game plan and omit useful players, were it to actually be planned from within the club, but I'm afraid atm we don't have a choice in what the outcome of a game is :(
Author:  GWS [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Megaman wrote:
I asked a few mates the yesterday this very question, how would you go about getting players to purposely play below 100%, couldn't happen.
The coach and MC could stuff with the game plan and omit useful players, were it to actually be planned from within the club, but I'm afraid atm we don't have a choice in what the outcome of a game is :(


You could pick Kouta whenever he's available. :P
Author:  moshe25 [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:26 am ]
Post subject: 
You could play Walker on Williams for a bit.
You could try Cory McGrath on Franklin for a bit.

Not for long, but just a few goals each.

You could do lots of subtle little things, and then right towards the end, you could say "now let's see how close we can really get?"
Author:  woof [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Beantown wrote:
woof wrote:
7Dom, Do you actually think we are good enough to tank?

I'll give you an example of tanking. Fev hurt his finger 3 weeks ago which will obviously need some surgery. Clubs that want to tank would have the surgery performed immediately and write him off for the season. We are playing him.

Tanking is what Collingwood did last year.


I can't see anything in his post that claims that he believes we are tanking!

Just a well reasoned line of questioning I think and I'm looking forward to people trying to answer them. :)


You are lazy. Answer them yourself.
Author:  Mordan [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:25 am ]
Post subject: 
woof wrote:
Beantown wrote:
woof wrote:
7Dom, Do you actually think we are good enough to tank?

I'll give you an example of tanking. Fev hurt his finger 3 weeks ago which will obviously need some surgery. Clubs that want to tank would have the surgery performed immediately and write him off for the season. We are playing him.

Tanking is what Collingwood did last year.


I can't see anything in his post that claims that he believes we are tanking!

Just a well reasoned line of questioning I think and I'm looking forward to people trying to answer them. :)


You are lazy. Answer them yourself.


Did you even read his post? It's quite clear he doesn't believe there are good (or easy) answers to those questions. Why would he then answer them himself?

And a snide remark about being lazy, when you haven't bothered to read his post properly is not called for.
Author:  woof [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Mordan wrote:
woof wrote:
Beantown wrote:
woof wrote:
7Dom, Do you actually think we are good enough to tank?

I'll give you an example of tanking. Fev hurt his finger 3 weeks ago which will obviously need some surgery. Clubs that want to tank would have the surgery performed immediately and write him off for the season. We are playing him.

Tanking is what Collingwood did last year.


I can't see anything in his post that claims that he believes we are tanking!

Just a well reasoned line of questioning I think and I'm looking forward to people trying to answer them. :)


You are lazy. Answer them yourself.


Did you even read his post? It's quite clear he doesn't believe there are good (or easy) answers to those questions. Why would he then answer them himself?

And a snide remark about being lazy, when you haven't bothered to read his post properly is not called for.


ok
Author:  7dominator [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
It seems like some have failed to understand what i was getting so what i will do is ask again the final question on my original thread......

""And one final question do "tankers" go to or listen to matches and what are they looking to see/hear given that they want a loss?"

This was a question i asked last week of the "Deity Twins" but i received no response.

To my mind the last 2 weeks are a great case in point for my question.The game versus Esssendon was a classic encounter versus the Old Enemy,close and exciting.
The Hawthorn game after a terrible first half, may, if French had've made his kick ,resulted in the unlikeliest of wins after a great comeback.

What were the "tankers who were there(and why did they go?)thinking?

Whilst i am cognisant of the ramifications, after watching the Blues for 50 years there is NOTHING that would make me not barrack whilst i was watching or listening!

Strangely enough,and some may say i also believe in the tooth fairy,i reckon that many of our more vocal proponents of the "tank" would also have deep down wanted the win.

If i am wrong,what is it that you are thinking,and why are you there or listening?

Is it a perverse desire to see/hear the worst and therefore say ,look i was always right about Stevens,Houla,Archie,Whitnall etc?

Or is it,to see a good display and then hope for the last minute loss?

The latter for me, to use maybe a poor analogy, is about as satisfying as the "rhythm Method. :oops:

In all this discussion from keen Carlton Supporters,this is what i am having trouble grasping.

I wonder how many others do too?
Author:  Blue Vain [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
During the games, I want to win. Who could possibly want to lose to Essendon*?
But once the game is over and the emotion dies down, I'm happy enough if the kids play well. Winning satisfies my short term ignorance but looking at the big picture, long term success relies on talent.

Getting game time in to the kids and seeing them improves is what it is about.
Play the kids before the Sporns, Bannisters, Prenders, Injured Koutas etc.
Lets be honest, a win before the end of the season is irrelevant.
It will cost far more than it achieves.
Confidence comes from sustained success.


As for sponsors etc, they dont neccesarily look to be on a winner. As long as a comprehensive, consistent and transparent plan is in place, they'll be happy to get in on the ground floor.
If you can sell the message to sponsors that Carlton will have a young exciting list that should be vying for finals in 3 years, they'll show patience.

If you then veer away from that plan and waste draft picks on recycled, broken down has beens, the sponsors will soon see through the bullshit.

The ability to be courageous in your approach should'nt be underestimated.
Until last year, we lacked that courage.
Author:  Beantown [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
woof wrote:
Beantown wrote:
woof wrote:
7Dom, Do you actually think we are good enough to tank?

I'll give you an example of tanking. Fev hurt his finger 3 weeks ago which will obviously need some surgery. Clubs that want to tank would have the surgery performed immediately and write him off for the season. We are playing him.

Tanking is what Collingwood did last year.


I can't see anything in his post that claims that he believes we are tanking!

Just a well reasoned line of questioning I think and I'm looking forward to people trying to answer them. :)





You are lazy. Answer them yourself.



I'm not advocating tanking why would I need to answer them?
Author:  dannyboy [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
what BV said only far more eloquently. 8)

cue now discussion on just what tanking is :garthp:
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