TalkingCarlton
http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

2007 Ruck and next steps...
http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12615		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  molsey [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  2007 Ruck and next steps...
OK, assume for a second that Carlton remains interested in Gardiner. We have lost Barnaby French for next year and on our list (currently) we have Bryan, Deluca, McLaren, Batson and Zakky. What do we do?

Option 1: Gardiner

Option 2: Stick with what we have, play McLaren or Bryan or Deluca and promote Batson or Zakky well before their name in the name of development

Option 3: Trade for another ruckman

In respect of Option 2, I think the non-selection of Bryan for the VFL finals says it all. I think he is gone whilst Pagan is Coach. I believe he is quite laconic in nature but many believe he has an attitude problem. Deluca can still learn but seems to look more like a forward (if anything at this level). McLaren is a tryer but hardly a #1 ruckman.

In respect of Option 3. I think the Hawks have some young rucks who may be overshadowed by the fine performance of Campbell in 2006. Bailey, Mcentee and 1 other? What would you offer to the Hawks (given their youth policy)... Houlihan or Fisher for a young ruck and a draft pick?

Do we need to do anything in 2007 and what do you think we should do?
Author:  scottopee [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hawks just lost Everitt so they won't be trading any ruckman and I don't rate McEntee. Still hope we can get a young Vic interstate ruckman.
Author:  Barnesy [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
- We tell Deluca and Mclaren too hold their own next season.

- We look at selecting a VFL / SANFL / WAFL player that is competing well in their competition with a late pick if he has a real upside.

- We ensure that we rookie another two ruckmen this year.

We should not change our drafting strategy because of panic with French retiring. If needed we rove to the opposition. Mclaren and Deluca a tall enough too at least try and hold their own.

We recruit well and show a real competitive sign next year and three things then happen.

1/ We recruit ruckmen in the National Draft next year.

2/ We promote Aisake

3/ A ruckman from another club is enticed too the blues as he sees a future with a team full of potential.
Author:  TruBlueBrad [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Agree with Barnsey. Unless we can trade for a young ruckman with a fringe player or late draft pick or attract something in the PSD I think we should stick with De Luca and McLaren and draft a young ruckman with our 3rd or 4th round selection and put another on the rookie list in addition to Aisake. Whether that means re rookie drafting batson or going with someone fresh would depend on whats available at the time.
Author:  bondiblue [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Molsey. you know this is my pet subject.

What have we got?

DeLuca 202
Batson 202
Bryan 197
McLaren 196
Aisake 203
Prendergast 195

What haven't we got?

one, let alone two genuine tall ruckman with the strength and experience to go with it.


What do we need?

PLAN A

A genuine tall ruckman with the strength and experience to go with it, to feed our growing midfield brigade. A ruck team consisting of 2 genuine ruckmen in our first 22, 2 reserve ruckmen (incase of injury, form or personal reasons first 2 are not available for selection) and 1 rookie.

Situational analysis suggests that DeLuca is our first ruck with a view that he is tall enough and mobile enough to at least be a nullifier, and will probably become our Harry Madden when he's about 28 (2008). Dempsey must continue to work and work with him over the preseason and get him on the weights. McLaren is experienced, albeit too short, as his support off the bench.

We promote Batson and Aisake inplace of Bryan and Prendergast as genuine talls. Batson hasn't proven anything but he's only 20 (we either discard him altogether or take a punt that he may develop, we don't have that many choices to discard him at 20). Aisake must continue to do the same as DeLuca and work work work and get on the weights. Aisake will make it. He should come good in the latter part of 2007 and we can't afford to have him as a rookie waiting for a LTI replacement. The more games he plays in 2007, the better he'll understand what's required of him over the 2007-8 pre season.

We take a punt on the best available rookie in the draft, after the best players have been selected, either 17, 19....83 whatever...he will either make it or not. If he does, it wont be till 2010, at the very least.

PSD we need to entice a genuine ruckman. We have selection 1 in the PSD and plenty of room in our salary cap (if we can't get Goddard). Not Gardiner. Maybe Keating, but only after serious medical checks. My preference would be Doyle, if Spider wants to go to Sydney (do a deal with our first selection of the PSD as leverage)...there's others too...plenty.

In the 2007 draft our first selection is the ruck choices available, if there is a second ruckman available in round 2 take him too.

You can't win a premiership with a premiership ruck combination (they will take 4 years to develop).

PLAN B

If we get the PP, then take Gibbs #1 and Leuenberger #3. Promote Aisake and Batson. Let DeLuca and McLaren do the job with either Bryan or Prenders as the back up, in the hope that Aisake really develops, and/or Batson shows some good signs in the Bullants. Prenders and Bryan are delisted and can't stand in the way of their development year.

Next year take a ruckman as first round selection in the 2007 draft, if available (unless there is Gary Ablett reborn available), and if in the second rounf there is another ruckman available take him as well (unless there's another Gary Ablett avialable). The we can delist Bryan and Prenders.

WE MUST TAKE THE RUCK POSITION SERIOURS IF WE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THE 17th FLAG WITH THE YOUNG KIDS WE"VE GOT, OR FORGET ABOUT IT, and stop teasing. I want the next premiership next year, but if it's 2010-11 then so be it. But please MC don't tease me and think we'll win a premiership with rucks the same height as McLaren and Bryan. It wont happen. Just look at StKilda and learn. Doggies Street beat them all comers in the finals game, when it really counted.
Author:  Synbad [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
If McLaren.,DeLuca and Bryan cant ruck for a season what a waste of picks!!!

Just ruck them and ease Setanta into the ruck and spend abit of time with both him and Aisake with Dempsey.

No bandaids.!!!
Author:  Siegfried [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
bondiblue wrote:

PLAN B

If we get the PP, then take Gibbs #1 and Leuenberger #3.


Hello???? Can we please keep these discussion somewhere in the realm of reality??? There will be no early PP to be got...live in the real world people.
Author:  seanpb [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:26 am ]
Post subject: 
just watching glenelg vs sth adelaide on ABC2...we will be picking gibbs. first time ive seen him for a sustained period of time...hes a champ.

i agree with the poster before. late in the draft grab a ruckman from the WAFL or SANFL who has been performing well. give em a shot.
Author:  molsey [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Plan C should be broken into 2; a mature aged ruckman from another Club or a youngster perhaps not given chances by other Clubs. I think unlike years past we do have some potential trades but I guess its up to the Club to make that decision.

BB I love your confidence but Deluca and Harry cant be mentioned in the one sentence for rucks, surely? Deluca still struggles to keep his feet in ruck contests and although I think he'd be cheap and probably worth more development time, can't see him being of much long-term value in the ruck.

I am just not sure that Plan B - or 'no bandaids' as Synbad put it - can be justified. We've got 3 second stringers on the list plus 2 potentials (albeit 1 more potential than the other on 2006 VFL performance) unless they are very confident in 1 or 2 of the potentials getting some senior game time in 2007.
Author:  bondiblue [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:53 am ]
Post subject: 
Siegfried wroye

Quote:
bondiblue wrote:


PLAN B

If we get the PP, then take Gibbs #1 and Leuenberger #3.


Hello???? Can we please keep these discussion somewhere in the realm of reality??? There will be no early PP to be got...live in the real world people.


I think I know what you mean by the real world Seigy, and it would be a mistake to consider it as likely, anyhow as for the real world, that's PLAN A.

There has been much suggestion of late that the board may challenge the AFL for the PP...rumour or not...it has been written, hence my PLAN B. I have considerable doubt that it will happen, but I do like the thought. It's called a 'what if' scenario...I'm not considering probability, just possibility, and if so, write what would I do if that became reality. Gotta cover all bases.

Half of the posts on TC are a bit of fun, and that's also a reality. Dream if it comforts, laugh if it's ridiculous, but don't discount the possibility entirely. That's no fun.
Author:  bondiblue [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Molsey wrote

Quote:
BB I love your confidence but Deluca and Harry cant be mentioned in the one sentence for rucks, surely? Deluca still struggles to keep his feet in ruck contests and although I think he'd be cheap and probably worth more development time, can't see him being of much long-term value in the ruck.


Yeah I know where you are coming from Molsey, but I believe in this guy's potential.

History also supports and has modelled such a belief. I can go back to the 60's and 70's, 80's and 90's where hopeless lanky ruckmen came from nowhere, and everything they had been working on for years just fell into place and they made a name for themselves as genuine good ruckmen.

I remember Harry, before all the muscle was built up and I remember him in '93 really take the game by the scruff of the neck. What was he before '93? Skinny, unco, silly to watch, definetely nowhere near the capability of his brother, or Solomon, or Merrett, (I can't remember the other ruckman they had), he was just really tall, but he came from through the system from a very young age.

DeLuca came from the VFL(Port Melb) as a 22 year old. He is tall, mobile, but rarely takes a one grab mark (although he has at times; promise), and is easily pushed aside and under the ball in contested situations. He's had 1 year with Dempsey, and a part timer in Madden the previous year to teach him the ruck role. Not much tuition really. So there's an upside for me. He lacks experience and experience is the mother of all learning.That's all it might take (with a bit more strength). Weights can fix his other deficiency.

I will not be surprised to see him peak in 2008, when he's 28. That's my opinion. If he's still around in 2008, history will judge him.
Author:  Siegfried [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
bondiblue wrote:
Siegfried wroye

Quote:
bondiblue wrote:


PLAN B

If we get the PP, then take Gibbs #1 and Leuenberger #3.


Hello???? Can we please keep these discussion somewhere in the realm of reality??? There will be no early PP to be got...live in the real world people.


I think I know what you mean by the real world Seigy, and it would be a mistake to consider it as likely, anyhow as for the real world, that's PLAN A.

There has been much suggestion of late that the board may challenge the AFL for the PP...rumour or not...it has been written, hence my PLAN B. I have considerable doubt that it will happen, but I do like the thought. It's called a 'what if' scenario...I'm not considering probability, just possibility, and if so, write what would I do if that became reality. Gotta cover all bases.

Half of the posts on TC are a bit of fun, and that's also a reality. Dream if it comforts, laugh if it's ridiculous, but don't discount the possibility entirely. That's no fun.


Yeah, I know Bondi, and I know it's good to have a bit of a laugh these days...especially these days. Just gets a bit frustrating when in the middle of the 'serious' discussions, people start talking about these way out, non-sensical, scenarios.

In the meantime...we'd better get Elliott (spits at the sound of the name) back to take the AfL to court... :lol:
Author:  keogh [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
The fact is O'Bryan,McLaren and Deluca are not up to it.I would promote Batson and/or O'Hailpin and pick another ruckman like a Rix late in the draft and go with that.Then look to recruit a good young ruckman inthe draft for 2008.Hopefully Aisake may develop further to be promoted in 2008.Batson when I have seen him looks ok.He deserves a crack for 2 reasons.
1 We wont know until he is given a decent go. 2 The three mentioned above are simply not good enough so try someone different.
Author:  malbi [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
After todays game our first task will be to get rid of the deadwood. That means DeLuca. He can't ruck and he can't take a contested mark to save himself. Terrible.
Author:  thrylos7 [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Only problem is we don't have many players over the 200cm mark.

He may be crap and certainly wont help us, but with big barney retiring i reckon his height will save him in the end
Author:  malbi [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
We would be better off trading DeLuca for a light pole. At least then we wouldn't have unfulfilled expectations. :?
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
malleefowl wrote:
We would be better off trading DeLuca for a light pole. At least then we wouldn't have unfulfilled expectations. :?


Does the light pole come with it's own gloves?
Author:  The Tyrant [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:47 am ]
Post subject: 
malleefowl wrote:
We would be better off trading DeLuca for a light pole. At least then we wouldn't have unfulfilled expectations. :?


But if we did that then we'd have no one tall enough to change the globe




I agree BTW... DeLuca is shit. Just another example of Pagan's fuzzy nonsensical view of modern footy.
Author:  bondiblue [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Keogh wrote

Quote:
The fact is O'Bryan,McLaren and Deluca are not up to it.I would promote Batson and/or O'Hailpin and pick another ruckman like a Rix late in the draft and go with that.Then look to recruit a good young ruckman inthe draft for 2008.Hopefully Aisake may develop further to be promoted in 2008.Batson when I have seen him looks ok.He deserves a crack for 2 reasons.
1 We wont know until he is given a decent go. 2 The three mentioned above are simply not good enough so try someone different.


Aisake will develop IMO, but will look really silly at times, as our first ruck in the seniors, at least in 2007. Problem with that is TC posters will give him a serve and fail to understand that he is still developing. It happened to Setanta, it's happening to DeLuca, it happens to all carlton's developing players.

So a 20 yo Batson is thrown (to the wolves) into the seniors as our first ruck with Aisake to support. What do you really think the outcome will be? Read above reference to Aisake.

The shit we will cop as a club from the media, for delisting/ dropping DeLuca 202, and McLaren in 2007 after French's retirement, and replacing them with Batson and Aisake in the seniors is all wrong. Wrong for Deluca and co, wrong for the club, and wrong for Aisake and Batson. Promote and develop the latter 2, but don't throw them to the wolves with unrealistic expectations.

If we are to drop DeLuca and McLaren, who I do not believe are up to it at this stage either (and McLaren will never be), we will have to replace them with genuine ruckmen. Apart from Leuenberger (he'll take a couple of years development) time), they're scant this year in the draft, and leaves us with finding a current ruckman or experienced tall, or a 200cm player fron the WAFL or SANFL...Gardiner (no thanks), Everitt (as if he's come to Carlton) and Keating (Swans or saints will get him before we do), or Chambers (too short)....well that leaves us with Gardiner....give me DeLuca anyday.

WAFL or SANFL sound good, but I bet they will be band aids too. If not, bring 'em on.
Author:  mjonc [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd take Gardiner on one knee over Deluca anyday of the week.
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC + 10 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/