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Give me 5 reasons...
http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2954		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  mjonc [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Give me 5 reasons...
... why JR should not debut this week against the Bulldogs?
Author:  magic [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I cant find one, let alone 5.
Author:  The Shag [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
very good point....

but then again...he wont get a game...simple as that...is that a reason?
what is denis' reasons behind not playing people???
should play, but wont...
Author:  camel [ Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Who decided that Jordan "should" play?

I'd like him to get a run too, but if he doesn't I reckon there'd be some reasons. I can speculate if you like, but I'd only be guessing.
Author:  Blue Vain [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:51 am ]
Post subject: 
1. The match committee know his development better than us.

2. They timed Chris Bryans debut well and had him playing the type of footy they were after.

3. Players should be played when they are ready to take the next step in their development, not to appease supporters.

4. Denis is interested in team balance and structure. We already have more small bodies running around than anyone.

5. I wouldnt be surprised to see him get a gig this week. :wink:
But dont think Denis has any agendas. He wants to see JR kick on as much as anyone.
He just wants to do whats best for the player.
Author:  budzy [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
If he were promoted where would he be played or what role should he play? From reading bullant reports he's been spending time as an attacking defender. Who should he replace?
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bryan was played too late IMHO and the MC doesnt have a clue.. Deluca was way out of form and we were doing our usual trick of playing part timers in the ruck..lets get real..Bryan only got a game because French was injured not because the MC had any intention of playing him ever..

I dont have an objection to Russell playing this week....we need to give him a taste soooner or later and some fresh young legs might be the go vs the bullies...even if he only gets limited game time its worth it...

We have played small bodies all year, thats my point about Bryan....should have played earlier so we had less small bodied Kenyan U15's running around...
Author:  mjonc [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Straight swap for Trent Sporn IMO. Even David Teague.

As for the development issue, some players thrive on the challenge of a higher standard.
Author:  woof! [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
I heard Pagan at a corporate function last night and he was asked this question. He replied that Russell has been playing in the back line lately for his development and doing well. He plans to move him to the midfield and then hopefully later in the season give him a run in the firsts. He could be foxing I guess, but it sounds plausible....
Author:  mjonc [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Would it not be easier to play him off half back in his natural position so he can adjust more easily to the tempo of AFL? Seriously why can he not develop in the seniors like Walker is?

I'm not giving up on this topic. Pagan if your listening its my Birthday today and this is the one present i want :cry:
Author:  Bluesboy70 [ Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Blue Vain wrote:
2. They timed Chris Bryans debut well and had him playing the type of footy they were after.



Ditto, Jarrod Waite.

BUT, its a catch 22 situation

I have always been a firm believer that a player needs to EARN a spot rather than have it spoon-fed to you regardless of your youth or draft ranking. But, Collingwood have definetly improved (unfortunately) since the Freo debacle because of some of the kids they have given a go. (Rusling, Cloke no3) Personally, I would like to see him get a game, but unless he gets given meaningful game time he will better off at the Bullants for the time being, where at least he can gain some confidence in a side that is going well. Denis, rightly or wrongly, obviously feels this way, which is why guys like Davies, Bowyer, Clarke, Morrell, Sporn and Johnson have been rotated in and out of the side despite the fact that it would seem none of them will be at the club next season.
Author:  Big_T [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:11 am ]
Post subject: 
mjonc wrote:
Would it not be easier to play him off half back in his natural position so he can adjust more easily to the tempo of AFL? Seriously why can he not develop in the seniors like Walker is?

I'm not giving up on this topic. Pagan if your listening its my Birthday today and this is the one present i want :cry:


Happy Birthday MJ
Author:  79Vintage [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:13 am ]
Post subject: 
I'd like to see Russell play very soon, after last weeks game I really think he is finding his feet. Took a great contested mark, moved very well with the ball and his disposal was also very good. Had my doubts earlier this year as he looked at sea in the VFL, now I have no doubts he'll make his debut this year.
Author:  therubbernub [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:05 am ]
Post subject: 
I think Dennis has bigger fish to fry so to speak.

1 He knows there will be another big list turnover at years end
2 He knows JR will be a player and will make it
3 He has got just 10 games before he has to make a decision on who gets the cut and he wants to make an informed decision

Therefore the strategy will be to sift the wheat from the chaff for the rest of the season. This can only be done on the footy field.
Author:  mjonc [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:45 am ]
Post subject: 
therubbernub wrote:
I think Dennis has bigger fish to fry so to speak.

1 He knows there will be another big list turnover at years end
2 He knows JR will be a player and will make it
3 He has got just 10 games before he has to make a decision on who gets the cut and he wants to make an informed decision

Therefore the strategy will be to sift the wheat from the chaff for the rest of the season. This can only be done on the footy field.


I think we know who is going to get the cut, it is not rocket science based on all the lists within this forum the past month. If Pagan has made a decision then why play them and sacrifice the development of youth.

We are 16th on the back of the "Soon to be delisted" players being rotated in and out of the team, we cannot get any worse by playing the Simpsons, Benticks, Smiths, Normans, Russells, Hartletts and even Blackwells (Thats my best Sheehan impersonation). If we don't play them and do clean out the list for next year, we are back to square one as the kids we have will have no experience and will be another long year in 2006.
Author:  simonverbeek [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:25 am ]
Post subject: 
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
Bryan was played too late IMHO and the MC doesnt have a clue.. Deluca was way out of form and we were doing our usual trick of playing part timers in the ruck..lets get real..Bryan only got a game because French was injured not because the MC had any intention of playing him ever.


You are right about the match committee. And the MC is also right.

I don't wanna be the party spoiler, but have you watched Bryan ruck in the last two games? His ruck work is horrendous, and it's exposed us both against Sydney and BL. Their midfielders were getting first use at every stoppage from their ruckmen.
Yeah, he's a mammoth left foot kick, but that's about it. And that's why he wasn;t playing. The match committee gave deluca 6 chances before even thinking about playing Bryan. That says it all.
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Bryan is a novice ruckman agreed and his ruckwork doesnt include a lot of palming but I think he uses his body better than Deluca but is more capable of learning the ruck caper and being a better ruckman than Deluca. One more thing ...Bryan can get the ball around the ground and is far more capable of being involved in general play and looks better co-ordinated than either French or Deluca...

Dont get me wrong...Bryan is no champ or cert to stay on our list and has plenty of learning to do but skill wise he leaves the two ruckman we have in his wake and its not just the kicking...his upside could be very good and I liken him to Brendon Lade in style...Lade was also a tad lazy and laconic and no great ruckman in his early days...

Problem I see with Bryan is attitude and he has a bit of laziness about him...makes the effort when he has to..chase when he feels like it etc etc..
Unlike a lot of our list its not skill problems....maybe its the Frankston boy/Everitt thing I see in him/mullet hairdo....but he has some maturing to do and he needs to do it quick at his age..

Saying all that though Deluca had no right to so many chances and I felt the MC were negligent in not giving Bryan a run earlier for both his and Deluca's sake......Bryan had more of the ball in one game than Deluca has had all year yet the MC were rewarding him with games and ignoring Bryan with the disclaimer that Bryan wasnt following coaches instructions or had attitude....or so the rumour mill says.

Is it better to take a risk with trying Bryan or go back to a part timer in Prenda who isnt a ruckman?....we need to look at giving talented players game time, players with good skills..we have problems working out who has talent..Simpson is another...his skill base is far superior ot a lot of the rejected grunts we have playing yet he continues to be a yo yo selection.

I think its time we put talent ahead of other criteria and give time to players who can actually be something and a bit better than a good blue collar worker....our MC are not thinking this way and are ultra conservative....Sentanta should have been on the senior list at the end of last season...they stuffed up....they let Bryan wallow in the Bullants too long and if they are interested in getting skill into the seniors should be giving Simpson a better go and looking at Blackwell and Russell in the near future......they can f&ck around swapping Clarke for Bowyer, McGrath for Johnson, Bannister foor Prenda etc etc etc but that will get us no where.

Would Peter Everitt have got a game under our MC?..probably not..wrong attitude..blah blah blah....forget the talent factor...wrong attitude...lets ignore him and delist him and stick with old reliable Prenda as a fill in...
Author:  Synbad [ Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Everitt would have got a game.. problem is we dont have an Everitt.

Bryan is no better than Deluca but doesnt have a work ethos to boot.

Thats sending out the wrong message.......
Author:  Elwood Blues1 [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Synbad ...Will have to disagree on Bryan being no better than Deluca...to me Bryans skill level is higher from what I have seen and Bryan had the ball more in one match than Deluca has had for the season.Rucking wise you may have a point as neither have been overly impressive.

I dont get down to training or know the behind scene's stuff like you , so I can only base my comments on what I see in games and so far I have been impressed with Chris Bryan as a footballer . Clearly you are not a fan of Bryan or his attitude/work ethic and must know something I dont...is Pagan not a fan of his and if so are his days numbered come the end of the season.?..
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