TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Pagan sums it up nicely

Carlton coach Denis Pagan has blamed a lack of intensity for the 46-point thrashing by the Western Bulldogs here last night that left his team firmly rooted

When Fevola's head dropped late in the third quarter and he slumped over, it was Bryan who ran over and jerked him upright.

79.. we played above ourselves last year imo.
We never should have win 10 it was a mirage....
We beat Collingwood by a point twice we won the Crows game on the siren and caught a few teams when they had a downer....and others were just more of a rabble than we were.

Yes Pagan should take some responsibility...!... i really think he should .. but the list is very Fitzroy/Freoesque..

There are players that dont try week in week out.. they dont do what they train to do... they dont fight.. they dont hit targets they make silly mistakes... THEYRE NOT UP TO IT...OT FOR IT!!!

Unlikely Abaddon

The other possible reason is that the players have lost confidence in each other.... and turning over the list would be the tonic for that.

I'd say this reason is more likely than the "The players have no confidence in Pagan" theory.

Denis Pagan has lost the players.

Two draft picks next year isn't going to change too much if 80% of the players no longer respect and listen to the coach (and the other 20% are just shit trucks anyway). He already cleaned out the deadwood only 2 years ago. What now more player decent? Another clean out in 2007??

The team is bad. But it shouldn't be this bad. Wayne Brittain had injuries and retirements as a poor excuse. Pagan has nothing. We've hardly got an injury list to speak of.

Like the players I've lost all confidence in Pagan.
You can't believe a word he says.
Denis Pagan should resign with what little dignity he has left.

Synbad wrote:

See you can look at last year the other way too Synbad - we got lucky in a few games no doubt but we should have beaten Sydney and threw it away and we led North until the last minute too...win those games on top of the ones we won and presto we're probably playing finals..

Is the list THAT bad Synbad? I don't think it is, in fact I'm convinced it isn't. Something is wrong though. We're not that bad as to only have 2.5/13 wins just like arguably we weren't good enough really to have 10/22 wins. Works both ways. The fundamental problem as far as I can see it is a pure and simple lack of intensity and lack of fight and desperation and a real will to win...yes obviously the list still isn't great whether or not we play hard but the players are not getting the most out of themselves and Denis is not getting the most out of the players Synbad...see you can't expect players' skills to suddenly change but you can expect to play with intensity and actually looking like you give a shit and this isn't happening!

How do we go from beating the Dogs by 9 goals 16 weeks ago to losing by a similar margin 4 months later? 100+ point turnaround in that period of time? The Dogs that night in the Wizard Cup had as good a team in as they had last night and probably a better one with Darcy, Grant etc...the players aren't as bad as they are playing Synbad. We beat a full strength WCE for heaven's sake! In two weeks time we play them again and we'll go in the longest favourites you'll probably ever see in a two horse race.

I just can't believe that we are playing so poorly because I know that we aren't this bad.

Author:	Deano Supremo [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:23 am ]
Post subject:	Pagan sums it up nicely
Blues jaded, Bulldogs elated Quote: Carlton coach Denis Pagan has blamed a lack of intensity for the 46-point thrashing by the Western Bulldogs here last night that left his team firmly rooted Firmy rooted? Yep, I reckon that's a fairly good appraisal of where we are at

Author:	mjonc [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:48 am ]
Post subject:
Sick of hearing the same old shite every week from Pagan, especially the last quarter efforts. "We looked flat and we looked jaded. We certainly played like that for parts of the game, but I really appealed to them at three-quarter-time and they were able to find something. There were some positives to come out of it," Pagan said.

Author:	budzy [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:48 am ]
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Dogs run Blues ragged I'm heartened by this quote Quote: When Fevola's head dropped late in the third quarter and he slumped over, it was Bryan who ran over and jerked him upright.

Author:	79Vintage [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:28 am ]
Post subject:
I too am sick of pagan's explanations, the bottom line is that he isn't getting anywhere near the best out of 3/4's of the team. I'm waiting for him to say he takes some responsibility rather than blaming a lack of talent, the same lack of talent that won ten games last year.

Author:	Synbad [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:33 am ]
Post subject:
79.. we played above ourselves last year imo. We never should have win 10 it was a mirage.... We beat Collingwood by a point twice we won the Crows game on the siren and caught a few teams when they had a downer....and others were just more of a rabble than we were. Yes Pagan should take some responsibility...!... i really think he should .. but the list is very Fitzroy/Freoesque.. There are players that dont try week in week out.. they dont do what they train to do... they dont fight.. they dont hit targets they make silly mistakes... THEYRE NOT UP TO IT...OT FOR IT!!!

TalkingCarlton http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

Pagan sums it up nicely http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3063	Page 1 of 3

Author:	79Vintage [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:36 pm ]
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Last time I saw you after round six you said we'd definitely make the finals this year.

Author:	Rod Waddell [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:
79V agree. Pagan seems to be passing the buck. l want to see something tangible. I want to see some improvement. I want to see our younger players developing. Shit at a minimum l want to see some desperation, guts and determination. He is failing on all those counts at the minute.

Author:	Blues2005 [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:
Synbad wrote: 79.. we played above ourselves last year imo. We never should have win 10 it was a mirage.... We beat Collingwood by a point twice we won the Crows game on the siren and caught a few teams when they had a downer....and others were just more of a rabble than we were. Yes Pagan should take some responsibility...!... i really think he should .. but the list is very Fitzroy/Freoesque.. There are players that dont try week in week out.. they dont do what they train to do... they dont fight.. they dont hit targets they make silly mistakes... THEYRE NOT UP TO IT...OT FOR IT!!! See you can look at last year the other way too Synbad - we got lucky in a few games no doubt but we should have beaten Sydney and threw it away and we led North until the last minute too...win those games on top of the ones we won and presto we're probably playing finals.. Is the list THAT bad Synbad? I don't think it is, in fact I'm convinced it isn't. Something is wrong though. We're not that bad as to only have 2.5/13 wins just like arguably we weren't good enough really to have 10/22 wins. Works both ways. The fundamental problem as far as I can see it is a pure and simple lack of intensity and lack of fight and desperation and a real will to win...yes obviously the list still isn't great whether or not we play hard but the players are not getting the most out of themselves and Denis is not getting the most out of the players Synbad...see you can't expect players' skills to suddenly change but you can expect to play with intensity and actually looking like you give a shit and this isn't happening! How do we go from beating the Dogs by 9 goals 16 weeks ago to losing by a similar margin 4 months later? 100+ point turnaround in that period of time? The Dogs that night in the Wizard Cup had as good a team in as they had last night and probably a better one with Darcy, Grant etc...the players aren't as bad as they are playing Synbad. We beat a full strength WCE for heaven's sake! In two weeks time we play them again and we'll go in the longest favourites you'll probably ever see in a two horse race. I just can't believe that we are playing so poorly because I know that we aren't this bad.

Author:	Abaddon [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:
Denis Pagan has lost the players. Two draft picks next year isn't going to change too much if 80% of the players no longer respect and listen to the coach (and the other 20% are just shit trucks anyway). He already cleaned out the deadwood only 2 years ago. What now more player decent? Another clean out in 2007?? The team is bad. But it shouldn't be this bad. Wayne Brittain had injuries and retirements as a poor excuse. Pagan has nothing. We've hardly got an injury list to speak of. Like the players I've lost all confidence in Pagan. You can't believe a word he says. Denis Pagan should resign with what little dignity he has left.

Author:	The Tyrant [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:
Unlikely Abaddon The other possible reason is that the players have lost confidence in each other.... and turning over the list would be the tonic for that. I'd say this reason is more likely than the "The players have no confidence in Pagan" theory.

Author:	peterdeano [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:
The Tyrant wrote: Unlikely Abaddon The other possible reason is that the players have lost confidence in each other.... and turning over the list would be the tonic for that. I'd say this reason is more likely than the "The players have no confidence in Pagan" theory. I suspect that the flood tactic is well worn out, both Lions last week and Now the Bullies seem to know to to conteract it - get to the fifty and kick over the flood. Check out the scoring chart on afl.com. Pagan has no tricks left .

Author:	Wojee [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:38 pm ]
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The Lions were bombing goals from 60m at an alarming rate. The dogs were kicking them from outside 50 easily as well. We appear to have only one bloke who can kick over that distance and he's got a bung groin.

Author:	dannyboy [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:
or Pagan can't come out and say 'well I think we need the PP and so we aren't trying to win but I need to look s if i am so i fire 'em up at 3/4 when the game is shot and gee it looks good - course that bloody draw against Port damn near gave me a heart attack!' Plus when assessing our list remember we have Kouta Scotland Campo Stevens Davies Whits Houla & Bowyer (I've probably missed a couple) who appear to have no idea how to chase, i mean rally chase, not jog along but actually run hard and fast and we have a group of the older players who appear to have no faith in the kids. Shit did you see Bryan kick that goal - did anyone run to him???? This is a crap team. Pagan is letting them show their crappiness to prepare us for the next phase at the end of the year.

Author:	Lace Out [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:
I would like to say it isn't so, but the truth is he has lost some players... I believe we will have a bit of a clean out again, and the ins this time will be alot better with the picks we will have. And hopefully abit of luck with the late picks to boot..

Author:	2ndeffort [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:
Calm down and accept the situation. Lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. remember Brisbane in '98. Voss and co were running around for them then but they were crap and finished last. We clearly have a few blokes that are not up to it. There was clearly a lot of blokes that think that running vaguely near somebody is putting pressure on them. I am not a big fan but Davies, when he came on in the last qtr seemed to be the only bloke out there that wanted to lay a tackle. He went through a couple of passages of play where he was backing himself up with 2 or 3 tackles in a row whilst 2 of our blokes stood around and watched him. We were 'going through the motions'. Hate to trot out the old chestnut but Hoops = soft as shite. There was one play where he simply stood and watched as a dogs bloke stole a mark from him and ran off 1/2 back. We drafted some recycled hacks 2 years ago to fill a spot. That spot is fading. The only bloke to break a tackle and run with the ball last night was simmo. I reckon Pago is holding the kids back for a reason. He knows this year is gone and that the best we can get is draft picks. Lets let some of the recos etc play it out and hopefully raise any trade value they have left. Next year = new team. Last year's picks, this year's picks, Davies, Stevo, Simmo, T Bird, Tex, Fev, Setanta and Bryan.

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Author:	blues8182 [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:
Abaddon wrote: Denis Pagan has lost the players. Two draft picks next year isn't going to change too much if 80% of the players no longer respect and listen to the coach (and the other 20% are just shit trucks anyway). He already cleaned out the deadwood only 2 years ago. What now more player decent? Another clean out in 2007?? The team is bad. But it shouldn't be this bad. Wayne Brittain had injuries and retirements as a poor excuse. Pagan has nothing. We've hardly got an injury list to speak of. Like the players I've lost all confidence in Pagan. You can't believe a word he says. Denis Pagan should resign with what little dignity he has left. I am starting to think that this is possibly the most likely situation, I don't see how the players could have suddenly lost confidence in each other as last year & during the Wizard cup they were the tightest knit bunch of blokes you could ever see & were playing for each other like their lives depended on it, now they look a shadow of themselves. There is somthing very very seriously wrong at Carlton as the moment & I can't help thinking that it may be the coach.

Author:	camel [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:
If Pagan has lost the players, then surely, both coach and players need to go? If the same players that played with spirit and intensity in the Wizzer Cup, yes, yes, I appreciate it's "only the Wizard Cup" ... but we still played good football, no matter how you look at it. We were disciplined, intense and played as a team ... so if these same players don't want to play for the coach then they should piss off. What sort of integrity do they have if in 3 months they lose the respect of a guy that helped them to a pre-season flag? As unvaluable as some may think it is I reckon they all got a kick out of winning. Conversely, if Pagan has lost the players just three months after getting them up for a Wizzer Cup flag, then he has to go ... they all have to go because we don't need people so spineless at our club that chuck it in so easily once the going gets tough. Surely, neither of these scenarios are so?

Author:	Chemical [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:
God, some of you are like Tiger supporters. The Coach doesn't win games, the players do

Author:	Synbad [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:
Blues2005 wrote: Synbad wrote: 79.. we played above ourselves last year imo. We never should have win 10 it was a mirage.... We beat Collingwood by a point twice we won the Crows game on the siren and caught a few teams when they had a downer....and others were just more of a rabble than we were. Yes Pagan should take some responsibility...!... i really think he should .. but the list is very Fitzroy/Freoesque.. There are players that dont try week in week out.. they dont do what they train to do... they dont fight.. they dont hit targets they make silly mistakes... THEYRE NOT UP TO IT...OT FOR IT!!! See you can look at last year the other way too Synbad - we got lucky in a few games no doubt but we should have beaten Sydney and threw it away and we led North until the last minute too...win those games on top of the ones we won and presto we're probably playing finals.. Is the list THAT bad Synbad? I don't think it is, in fact I'm convinced it isn't. Something is wrong though. We're not that bad as to only have 2.5/13 wins just like arguably we weren't good enough really to have 10/22 wins. Works both ways. The fundamental problem as far as I can see it is a pure and simple lack of intensity and lack of fight and desperation and a real will to win...yes obviously the list still isn't great whether or not we play hard but the players are not getting the most out of themselves and Denis is not getting the most out of the players Synbad...see you can't expect players' skills to suddenly change but you can expect to play with intensity and actually looking like you give a shit and this isn't happening! How do we go from beating the Dogs by 9 goals 16 weeks ago to losing by a similar margin 4 months later? 100+ point turnaround in that period of time? The Dogs that night in the Wizard Cup had as good a team in as they had last night and probably a better one with Darcy, Grant etc...the players aren't as bad as they are playing Synbad. We beat a full strength WCE for heaven's sake! In two weeks time we play them again and we'll go in the longest favourites you'll probably ever see in a two horse race. I just can't believe that we are playing so poorly because I know that we aren't this bad. Vintage i never said after the Collingwood game we would make the eight. I thought so before the Collingwood game. 2005.. you can be in denial all you like but yes our list is THAT bad. Footy isnt about talent (We dont have much of that either)... its also about mental toughness and leadership and inspiration. We dont have much talent.. we dont have much mental toughness .. we dont have much inspiration and we have NO leadership..... ...... End result is we are a bucket of shit!!!! .. now you can dress up a bucket of shit anyway you like... but its still a bucket of shit!!!! You have to get rid of the players that dont make a difference... and you have to replace them not with more REJECTS and wannabes.. but with early picks with talent, leadership and inspiration. You get a woody when Liverpool recruit good players from other clubs... why dont you say wait a sec.. i dont want those players im happy with the hacks that were there 4 years ago???? why wouldnt you want Gerard to leave and replace him with a player from Bath United??? Why???... cos you can never beat talent in the first place.... We have precious little talent... Those players we recruited from other clubs we got because they wernt good enough!!! No early picks??? Well GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY GROUNDHOG DAY .... 2075

Author:	singindablues [ Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:
I'm sure he's lost the players, if looking at the 30 blokes who've run out in Blue this year and realising, 'I've only got five premiership players here' means losing the players. Struth, they've lost me. Put yourself in his shoes. He has to do a post-match each week. What will he say after the Eagles game? Probably pretty much the same as last week. Then he goes out and puts a team on the park that will struggle to be competitive - I'm thinking on purpose - while continuing to develop kids in a winning atmosphere down at the Ants, planning for picks 1,2, 18 etc, plus trades, plus pick 1 in the PSD. The season's gone, it's probably going to be the last year with a PP, our list has been crucified and in hindsight, he probably erred by trading picks for the likes of Scotland, etc, but he must have thought some of those boys would come good. Bannister still might. Scotland still might. Next year's team will be very different to this one. Winning at this point gives us nothing but nice feelings. And frankly, those 10 winning feelings last year have probably cost us. Pago's trying to say as little as he can. I would too.