I am just a punter looking at footy through the media/TC etc but 2 issues strike me about the effort etc being put in by our mob right about now:

1. The senior players dont seem to be putting in at all right now. Isnt this the time of year where all clubs assess their lists/offer new contracts/refuse new contracts/prepare for draft/trade week etc. Assuming that our young talented players have been told they are wanted and contracted, then the same people that are currently dropping the ball (literally) are those most likely to be involved in the review at the moment. Presumably some of those guys have been told things that they'd rather not hear. Presumably some of them have taken offence and are possibly not giving it 100% as a result. This might be anything from your contract is not getting renewed to, we are offering you less than 1/2 of what you are currently on for a 12 month extension. Could this possibly be where the "Pagan has lost the players" is coming from??

2. I havent been watching them, just reading the match reports but it seems to me that the Bullants are having a good year. It seems to me that the spirit/commitment/passion that we would like to see in Navy Blue is currently running around in Red and White. There might be a huge leap from VFL to AFL, but it seems to me that our next team might just be starting to take shape in the form of some of the youngsters in the Bullants. A couple of years ago Carlton were shit but the Bullants were shit as well. It seems that the main team is still shit but that the Bullants might be getting better. This, for me is good news because, forget trades from St Kilda and Freo, the majority of our next successful team are probably coming from the Northern Bullants. A good, successful culture for the development of kids is more important to our rebuilding than any of our senior on-field match results at the moments.

Just a few thoughts.

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"Who discovered we could get milk from cows, and what did he think he was doing at the time?" Billy Connolly

In relation to your second point, I think the big driver is actual improvement to the list. Despite the negativities and frustration we all feel, we have a number of players too good for VFL level running around weith the Ants.

The problem is that they are either struggling at the top level, being played out of position when they get there, or just not good enough. Bannister, Johnson, Wiggins, Sporn, SEtanta, Simmo etc. are all above VFL but we just aren't giving them a chance, or they're not taking it, up top.

Yep both good points i suggested a while back that we maybe in a similar place to where Geelong where several years back when they one the VFL flag.. The senior team wasnt as bad as ours but was still performing reasonably avererage but the Geelong VFL team was really improving and was building up quite a good team spirit which eventually got them athe flag... now a lot of those players are playing in the senior side as a successful group. So i hope we have similar success in the VFL and the likes of Russell / Hartlet / Simspon / Raso / Becker / Baston / J Smith ect all are inducted properly into the seniors after a good run at VFL level in 2005 And they will come in having played with each other and forming a good bond .... And having been in a winning team unlike the seniors which have been struggling.

Interesting point and a fair one.

If you're told your contract is not going to be renewed and you're going to be delisted or traded, you're not going to put in are you?

If you're told that you're going to receive a 60% pay cut next year you're not going to really put in are you?

Where Denis has "lost the players" is the fact that he's decided on some of their futures and it's really no different from what we've done (Bannister - eh, he's a hack, Clarke, Morrell etc.) here on TC. If they are GAWN, then what motivation is there, particularly if you're a retread. Clubs aren't likely to give you a 3rd chance, particularly coming to a bottom team.

On the other hand, as chucky said in another thread, the risk is that you lose younger players who get pulled along with the senior lot. I fear that Denis may have crossed the line here.

Perhaps the public statements backfired. Denis is not known for bagging players in public; even while privately seething about Darren Hulme he was saying publicly he needed support.

Denis has never been particularly media savvy, he and Collo might have had this one backfire.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Be that as it may Molsey but, if the Bullants are a strong team in their competition, then isnt that a great place for a Russell or a Hartlett or a Setanta to develop rather than playing them in the 1's and putting them to sword against a Mal Michael or a Cornes or a Voss. Eventually they have to step up but at the moment there wouldnt be a whole lot of protection for them in the 1's. Melbourne can play a Colin Sylvia because there are plenty of other guns in their team to feed them a great ball, back them up etc. Too many youngsters in our team at the moment would simply be left hung out to dry by our current crop of unaccountable senior players.

I reckon we are protecting the kids until we have enough of them that are ready to really make a difference and then we will get the sea-change we have been waiting for.

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"Who discovered we could get milk from cows, and what did he think he was doing at the time?" Billy Connolly