There appears trouble down at Optus between Pagan and the playing group - there are some that probably know of this, and others that suspect it. This arvo, Sheik posted on CSC suggesting confirmation of this (http://www.csc.actebs.com.au/modules.ph ... pic&t=2795).

Obviously, this is a second hand source of info, so how much is true will depend on whether sheik indeed has sources, or how accurate they are. Given that I dont know the guy personally, I cant comment there but I felt the issue important enough to start a new thread here. Below are some quotes from his post which u can link to above).





Presumably more information will come to light in subsequent days/weeks.

On the issue of Pagan and his 3 year contract renewal though - I dont think we are necessarily tied to Pagan for the 3 years and nor would we have to pay him out. All that is required is a bit of lateral thinking by the administration and behind the scenes work.

As an example, we could convince St Kilda to 'poach' Pagan as coach for next season - CFC agrees to release pagan from his contract (we win in that we dont have to pay him out), Pagan wins (he gets a fresh start at another club), and st kilda win (they get a premiership coach to replace thomas).

Whilst this MAY hand the saints a premiership (given their current list), there is also a very real possibility that Pagan could put a few saints players off side as well - and in doing so, perhaps do more harm to their flag hopes than good

I'm not saying the club should get rid of pagan (obviously I dont know the full story), but given that this is the second playing group that he has lost, it might be useful for the club to be able to consider alternatives (rather than just saying we are tied to pagan for another 3 years and cant do anything about it).

No doubt the battlelines will be drawn shortly between posters (Pro-Pagan vs Pro-players). When posting though, I'd urge people to avoid the personal stuff (directed at coach, players and posters) and stick to the topic at hand. Post thought out responses rather than the emotional rhetoric that tends to be regurgitated by every second poster these days.

Look it's pretty obvious just from watching the team in recent weeks that something isn't right...and it isn't a lack of talent. Lack of talent is an issue but the more pressing concern is that of an apparent undercurrent of discontent among many of our players. This is translating to a lack of effort, determination, intensity etc. We look disjointed and do not resemble a "team".

Unfortunately I think that this might only be the tip of the iceberg. I'm not on anyone's side. I can see where Denis is coming from and I can see why the players would be discontented. I don't think that anyone should say that "well the players are soft and weak and should be able to handle whatever criticism is levelled at them" as firstly we don't know all the facts and secondly there are probably boundaries in such situations. I think that Denis has a right to have a go at players on occasion, don't get me wrong. But it does worry me that so many players seem to be offside with the coach.

Something clearly isn't right about the place and its manifesting itself on the field. It's a problem that no number of draft picks will fix. I keep saying it but at the present time I don't worry about a perceived lack of talent as much as the attitudes of the players and their mindset and the way the team is going about its business. Talent is a secondary issue. You don't need to be the most talented side ever assembled to win footy games. You win footy games nowadays by simply working harder and being tougher and more desperate. Class is a factor but the team that wants to win more usually prevails.

I'm one of those that doesn't believe that our list is as bad as some would have us believe, the problems at Carlton go beyond that and I steadfastly believe that we are not as bad as our record might suggest. The problems are more deep-rooted, it's not as simple as a lack of talent, whatever Denis or Collo or anyone might say, in my opinion. Recent stories about the mood down at Optus Oval indicate that something is going on, how true claims such as "Denis has lost the players" are, well nobody knows. But the general impression from the stories is obvious and as I said I fear that this might only be the beginning...

_________________
Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Gees I feel sorry for those poor poor well paid professional players who dont want to be coached by Pagen

Newsfalsh - Pagens coach, hes in charge what he says goes its as simple as that .

What a crock of crap, I can promise you all that I dont agree with my boss on quite a few issues however I learn to deal with whatever situation is served up to me and get on with the task at hand.

I think some of our "so called professional footballers" should do the same or go look for another club....

Makes me sick

_________________
A macfart a day helps you work rest and play

so we have a group of guns playing for us but theyre just mentally soft???

Ok...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Chicken, let me state that the source is 100% kosher, I cannot divulge who the person(s) is/are but I assure you it's very, very very credible.

One thing about all shit clubs... their players arent as shit as that its just that the players are soft bastards who dont want to play and have a shithouse attitude.
The problem is there is always a handful of players who plant seeds in the minds of others.. Thats what happens when you have a mentally soft list.
the other thing that happens when you have a mentally soft list is no matter who is coach theyre still mentally soft and will not win you a premiership.

I love how 2005 is all carried away with the Wizzer and he points to that as proof that we have a talented list.
The only problem is when he points to 10 players as proof we have a talented list.
these player are either too young or untried.. potential or long in the tooth.. or very good players and not superstars...

What 2005 fhould do is compare them to players from other lists and change his name to 2007.

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Questions:

Who are the players? if its the vets (Whits, Campo, Kouta) that have been there throughout then its the SAME problem not a new one.

Why not tell some players they aren't up to it if in your opinion they aren't! (And I am assuming it is either the Vets or the retreads (gee other teams also thought they weren't up to it)?

Has there has been a problem at Carlton with a couple of senior players right from the beginning? these players are now edgy because their contracts are up and the noose grows tighter.

Why are these details coming out now?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Oh and just another thought - knowing what is going on at the club - is this why Collo came out so strongly abouyt the c - z graders? Was he telling certain players - sorry it ain't the coach that's broke folks!

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Its not the vets.

Look its easier to sulk than play football when the chips are down.. its all part of 'softcock syndrome'..
Blame the coach because im no good....
Or because i wont get as much money...
Or in some cases if noone else is going to chase i wont either...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

How do you know Game?

You telling me its walker? Nope.

Fev - yeah and he just resigned

So who? Livo - not from my conversations with him.

We can forget the bullants - they are playing too well.

is it Davies, Sporn and Wiggo? No

So is it the retreads? Well sadly. I think a few of them are not up to AFL level - not if we wish to win a flag.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

If some players are starting to revolt the Football Department and Administraion have to hang tough.

There are four powerful 'political' forces within in each football club, The Administration, The Football Department, The Players and The Members/Supporters.

When things are all rosy these four forces work together in harmony and balance and the result is usually good on-field results.

When things get out of kilter and one of the political forces gets greedy or apathetic things can get out of balance and on-field and off-field results can be effected.

The Carlton 'political culture' does have a history of being fractious from time to time, however over 100+ years it has generally worked well to produce an organisation working towards one goal, premierships.

Some of the more traditionally poor performing clubs over the last 100 years have had different versions of 'political culture' where one or two of the four political forces has too much power.

One of the more common forms of this is the 'Player' force having too much power.

The Players can only become the dominant 'political' force at a club with the backing of the Members/Supporters and a weak Administration and Football Department.

If we want to follow the 'weak clubs' then as supporters we will support the players by criticising the Football Department and weakening their power relative to the players.

If we want to keep our 'Carlton' culture the Members/Supporters along with the Administration and Football Department have to keep the Players in their place.

_________________
|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

It is the duds and Pagan is right, but how are you supposed to get the best out of your players if you speak to them in that manner.

Don't believe the Walker rumour thats got as much credibility as the great strike of 03'. Pagan loves Walker and the way he goes about things.

perhaps he doesn;t want to get the best out of them

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I have no probs taking it on face value (wouldnt have posted it here otherwise) - however I prefer to let other people think and judge for themselves rather than take everything they read as gospel.

The number of posters that have posted about problems in recent times is growing and everyone has heard it from a different source. I think that is sufficient for most people to take notice

If we finish on the bottom and the coach has lost the players we must change coaches. He has had time to put together a team together. He cant get the team to play for him lets face it. We were better last year. We can play better.

When was the last club that finished last not change its coach?

Ratten Hickmott Kouta and Macca all seem like good strong people to me , if they have been driven out by a mad man then the mad man must go. So if pagan is nuts then move him on. Im sure Sticks and Collo have an eye on things.

That being said i hope its all rubbish. I hope pagan pulls the team together and we win more than half our games from now on and climb the ladder a bit and not win the wooden spoon. This club needs to get its self respect back.

I understand where you are coming from Chicken.

Well, if it's not the vets TheGame, then where's the leadership from the captain and vice-captains saying we're 100% behind the coach?



Personally, if the story is true, then the people he's got offside are the following:

- Retreads who haven't shown enough to be considered part of his next premiership team
- Vets who are being asked to take big pay cuts more in line with the rest of the league

Considering at least 1/2 the 22 that takes the field most weeks is in this category, I'm not surprised we're getting smashed because we look as though we're playing with 13 men or something.

4thchicken,

Legally difficult. Pagan could still ask for a pay out even if he went to St Kilda. Obviously we don't have the complete terms of the contract but as a coach who's got a manager etc. who would be experienced in reading a contract etc., it'd have to be fairly decent.

_________________
"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

or all the players

WHY WON'T THIS SEASON END??????????? END!!!!!!! BLOW SIREN BLOW!!!!!!!

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me