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 Post subject: Aberration?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:11 am 
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Craig Bradley
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I find it interesting that some of late have come out and stated that last years wins and the Wizard Cup were aberrations, that we ‘over achieved’. Some have further claimed that it would have been ‘better’ for the club to have finished nearer the bottom last year and not won the pre-season competition.

This view is revisionist and short sighted. Some key questions have to be asked. Given that the club, in the last six months have been able to secure a major sponsor, had a longterm sponsor increase it sponsorship, successfully increased secondary corporate sponsors, grown the coteries and achieved a record membership, do the revisionists believe this would have happened if the club finished poorly and had lost the first round of the Wizard Cup?

Let’s examine the Wizard Cup win first. The 250 000 first prize was nice but the add on benefits had been worth a lot more in dollar terms. Prior to the competition our membership numbers were not meeting expectations and we were still looking for a major sponsor. At the end of the competition we were ahead of projections on membership and had secured a new sponsor. So let’s do the figures

250 000 1st Place
500 000 new sponsor
200 000 Increased memberships

950 000 total.

None of this would have happened if we spent March playing in the regional series.

Now to the claims we should have finished near the bottom and picked some early draft picks. I have two issues with this. The first is that as supporters we expect those that represent the club out on the field do the best that they can and win as many games as they can. It is a compact between supporters and players. Thus we cannot be critical when the playing group achieves to its ability. While some will claim that last years group did not ‘represent’ their idea of a club, the fact remains that the group represented the club as a whole and did pretty well given the circumstances of the manner in which they were drawn together. For this they should be congratulated not condemned. (Note this year’s group has been criticised because of poor performance and given the results it is justifiable) My second issue with the revisionist view of last season is this. If we had finished last do the revisionists seriously think that the coach would have been re-signed to an extended contract or that Fevola would have re-signed if Pagan was not staying. A big price to pay for a couple of unproven youngsters.

It is my view that last season gave the club some much-needed breathing space. It allowed us to shore ourselves up off field and give a bit of joy to supporters. It gave the club time to gather itself and plan better for the future. Yes I would agree that there is a long way to go and much work to be done. But lets also enjoy the victories when we have them because the road is dark enough as it is.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:21 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Mark, I think in your additions, the $500 000 for a new sponsor should really be not included, as the money for a major sponsor should always be there, and the $500K for a new sponsor really just makes up for a sponsor who left (ie Toshiba).
Correct me if I'm wrong....

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:27 am 
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Craig Bradley
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The major sponsor was lured over the line with the Cup win, most likely would not have got them otherwise or as a secondary sponsor only. There was a real chance we woul have not have had a co-sponsor with Optus. Toshiba was only ever a short term sponsor.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:33 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Yes, but doesn't securing a new major sponsor just make up for a lack of one in past years? So securing them puts us back to even par, rather than being behind.
But I do see your point that without the win we may not have got them at all, which would have been even worse.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:34 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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This concept of Overachieving fascinates me. We always hear that team X or player Y played above themselves.
I still cant understand how you can perform above your capabilities. The aim is to get as close to 100% of your ability as possible each game. Obviously it is not possible to reach 100% of what you are capoable of. How is it posssible to play above 100% of your capabilities.
The Carlton team last year and in the Wizzer played close to their capabilities. Isnt that what you expect from your team every week?

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 Post subject: Re: Aberration?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:20 am 
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Ken Hands
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BlueMark wrote:
I find it interesting that some of late have come out and stated that last years wins and the Wizard Cup were aberrations, that we ‘over achieved’. Some have further claimed that it would have been ‘better’ for the club to have finished nearer the bottom last year and not won the pre-season competition.

This view is revisionist and short sighted. Some key questions have to be asked. Given that the club, in the last six months have been able to secure a major sponsor, had a longterm sponsor increase it sponsorship, successfully increased secondary corporate sponsors, grown the coteries and achieved a record membership, do the revisionists believe this would have happened if the club finished poorly and had lost the first round of the Wizard Cup?

Let’s examine the Wizard Cup win first. The 250 000 first prize was nice but the add on benefits had been worth a lot more in dollar terms. Prior to the competition our membership numbers were not meeting expectations and we were still looking for a major sponsor. At the end of the competition we were ahead of projections on membership and had secured a new sponsor. So let’s do the figures

250 000 1st Place
500 000 new sponsor
200 000 Increased memberships

950 000 total.

None of this would have happened if we spent March playing in the regional series.

Now to the claims we should have finished near the bottom and picked some early draft picks. I have two issues with this. The first is that as supporters we expect those that represent the club out on the field do the best that they can and win as many games as they can. It is a compact between supporters and players. Thus we cannot be critical when the playing group achieves to its ability. While some will claim that last years group did not ‘represent’ their idea of a club, the fact remains that the group represented the club as a whole and did pretty well given the circumstances of the manner in which they were drawn together. For this they should be congratulated not condemned. (Note this year’s group has been criticised because of poor performance and given the results it is justifiable) My second issue with the revisionist view of last season is this. If we had finished last do the revisionists seriously think that the coach would have been re-signed to an extended contract or that Fevola would have re-signed if Pagan was not staying. A big price to pay for a couple of unproven youngsters.

It is my view that last season gave the club some much-needed breathing space. It allowed us to shore ourselves up off field and give a bit of joy to supporters. It gave the club time to gather itself and plan better for the future. Yes I would agree that there is a long way to go and much work to be done. But lets also enjoy the victories when we have them because the road is dark enough as it is.


Just another example of how number of posts does not equal knowledge. 915 posts on talking carlton and probably over 5000 on tbv and the same nonsense is waffling out of the mouths of the sheep.

Oh yes it was so much better to have won ten games than to have deledio and tambling running around for us this year. We have so much talent in abundance, particularly in the midfield and we simply do not need draft picks such as these.

It is true over time some of you have seen the light however the majority probably still believe we should be playing every game at optus and whitnall is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Time to wake up and realise it is 2005 and not 1985. The funniest thing is if we did have Deledio and Tambling you'd be saying what guns they are and how good it was we got the priority pick last year.

Once again you have had the pleasure of learning from the great one,
Was, is and always will be the messiah of football,
Carlton God
AKA footy expert.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:22 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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buzzaaaah, we think alike :wink:
http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... ght=#45336

CG, had we 'won' the PP last year, and had Deledio and Tambling running around this year, would we be disappointed at NOT getting the PP this year?

How many does it take before we can actually play?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:37 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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cant say i agree Carlton God....Blue Mark is a respected member around here and on TBV...and his posts are more constructive than yours will ever be...

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 Post subject: Re: Aberration?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:38 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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[quote="Carlton God

The funniest thing is if we did have Deledio and Tambling you'd be saying what guns they are and how good it was we got the priority pick last year.

[/quote]

No I would be defending Pagan from the calls to sack him.

As for the move I have been advocating for it, for a decade no less and as those who know me, know I am far from a sheep, ask Synbad or Blue Vain if you wish.

But thank you for telling what it is I think, that is the reserve of a God I suppose. Shame I do not believe in Gods or those who think they are.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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buzzaaaah wrote:
This concept of Overachieving fascinates me. We always hear that team X or player Y played above themselves.
I still cant understand how you can perform above your capabilities. The aim is to get as close to 100% of your ability as possible each game. Obviously it is not possible to reach 100% of what you are capoable of. How is it posssible to play above 100% of your capabilities.
The Carlton team last year and in the Wizzer played close to their capabilities. Isnt that what you expect from your team every week?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:23 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:43 pm
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BM Good post

Appreciate your logical insight into were we are at, as I have not seen much of that this year.

I note you mentioned the new sponsor, any idea who that is and how long they signed on for? ( has probably been posted elsewhere but if you have the info handy it would be appreciated)

It will be interesting to see what effect our likely last place or near bottom of the ladder finish this season will have on sponsors next year....


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:38 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Winning the wizard cup was a off field success and I agree with BM about sponsors and members....at the end of the day ..no money means no club.
The other argument would be that we should forget about members/sponsors in the short term, bottom out and go for the early picks and then when we have a list of A grade youngsters the members and sponsors get onboard and stay onboard due to the strength of the list and promise of a successful long cycle...

I dont know which is best...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:38 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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buzzaaaah wrote:
This concept of Overachieving fascinates me. We always hear that team X or player Y played above themselves.
I still cant understand how you can perform above your capabilities. The aim is to get as close to 100% of your ability as possible each game. Obviously it is not possible to reach 100% of what you are capoable of. How is it posssible to play above 100% of your capabilities.
The Carlton team last year and in the Wizzer played close to their capabilities. Isnt that what you expect from your team every week?


Couldn't agree more.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:53 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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SurreyBlue wrote:
buzzaaaah wrote:
This concept of Overachieving fascinates me. We always hear that team X or player Y played above themselves.
I still cant understand how you can perform above your capabilities. The aim is to get as close to 100% of your ability as possible each game. Obviously it is not possible to reach 100% of what you are capoable of. How is it posssible to play above 100% of your capabilities.
The Carlton team last year and in the Wizzer played close to their capabilities. Isnt that what you expect from your team every week?


Couldn't agree more.


but the list is shit :roll:

p.s. agree buzz :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:10 pm 
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Ken Hands

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 10:45 pm
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winning the wizzard cup was an abberation of where the team is at compared to all other 15 clubs.
The other teams weren't giving it everything. That doesn't mean the players weren't trying their hardest, as im sure they were. But its early season, players are rusty, coaches are trying new things, there is no real gameplan, more just one-on-one testing out individuals rather than team performance.
Its pretty obvious that when teams put a gameplan together they quickly shut down the Fevola-Whitnall combination.

The 10 wins last year has cost the club in terms of draft picks, but winning the wizzard cup was well worth it.

btw the list is shit... :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:29 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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its fair to say the Wizard cup lacks some degree of "relativity".

If Carlton played Old Ivanhoe in a match we'd look like the greatest side ever, and Bannister the best forward to play the game since Courtney Johns.

Unfortunately, we play in the AFL premiership season, and not B-grade in the Ammos.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:31 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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Bluejean wrote:
Winning 10 games last year was necessary in terms of laying sponsorships, > membership and for the players and supporters to go into 2005 with a bit of hope.

Those 10 wins might appear a waste now to many, and this may sound silly, but from that "high" (if you can call it that), which the club had at the end of last season and into the Wizzer, it has enabled us to see which players have come falling down with a thud to where we sit now.

Remember, "man is where he is that he may learn that he may grow".

Some may argue that last season was 'short term gain for long term pain', however I look back on it as being (especially for some players) 'short term pain for long term gain' (in terms of the club). And that is what it is really all about.

Now try and digest all of what i just said...


My thoughts as previously stated...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:20 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Yep agree Bluemark Posted something similar on TC recently labelling that it appears to be a long term plan of the Blues to emerge out of the Gutter.
2004 was to give the Supporters / Members / Sponsers hope for the future showing even a desked Carlton can rise up and throw some punches...

The 2005 / Wizzer Cup was to continue the 2004 positives and also get some much needed finances and help in improving our position with sponsers and Members which would have signed up hoping for more of the same in the 2005 season. ALso i think helped with DP getting his contract extension.

Now that DP has gotten some off field success with Membership / Sponsers and also his contract extension ... its back to really accessing the list we can sort of afford to dip this year as DP has achieved what he and the club wanted to in 2005. If we then dip and get a good dip in the Draft that will be the final success of the story and hopefully will set up good vibes and positives for 2006 that members will stay on board and we will then start to show some success. I dont know if DP or the supporters / Members want us to bottom out for another year but he has possibly banked on this year that all the off field benefits have been put into place.

SO i am hopefully that we will see some positive and improvements for 2006


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:40 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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interesting point you make there...

(ignore this post...i just wanted to sound like i had bothered reading this thread...)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:23 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Our list is not good, but even a poor list can spring a surprise. Not sure how many they have won, but I recall that South Melbourne won a few night series cups in the past, but were crap during the home and away season.

Our 2004 form, extending to 2005 pre season will be seen as somewhat of an aberation in the middle of a very lean period for Carlton, but it wont matter much whether we missed a whole lot of new talent by not finishing lower in 2004.

What will matter more is where the draft system is taking football. I think that a major trend that will work to our benefit will be a marked evening up of the competition, this is something that is happening now, but I think it will become more noticeable in the future.

All we have to do is to recruit well in the 2005 draft, and maybe the 2006 draft too (however good 2006 recruiting may not be essential to get to where I think we will go). Just let the turning of the great footy wheel do the rest for us....

Yes, there will always be a team finishing on the bottom due to a horror run with injury, but there will be seasons where deep into the home and away matches, very little in terms of match points separate 1st from 16th.

Such circumstances will work to our advantage in the not too distant future.

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