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Deja Vu
http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3442		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Blue Bird [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Deja Vu
Did anyone else have flashbacks to the Brisbane game at Princes Park? The really sad thing was even while watching them play so well in the first half you just knew West Coast were going to find another gear. While the lack of intensity in the third quarter was terrible in reality we were playing the best team in the competition on their home ground.
Author:  Blue Vain [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am ]
Post subject: 
I was thinking the same thing myself BB.
The worst part is I suspect the players were having similar doubts.
Author:  CarltonClem [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:39 am ]
Post subject: 
And that is the problem that Synbad and others have commented on before.

A lot of the deficiencies that Carlton have at the moment is based on mental inability. Some of the players don't have the necessary hardness in their mental approach to the game. We'd probably have to be the weakest team in the AFL mentally, and probably physically as well. Unfortunately, there's nothing a coach can do to change the mental make-up of his players, it's something that is born and reared early in character and personality make up. Hence the immense importance we have to place on psychological testing. I hope that this is not lost on the recruiting staff, it's VERY important especially when we have no leaders at the club.

A couple of mental blouses might be tolerated if the rest of the team is hard but really, the whole team has to be mentally tough together; it really should be a trademark of our team. At the moment it isn't and since when have we blown away a side properly and I'm talking 8, 9, 10 goals? Geelong by 54 points last year when they had serious injuries outs would be the last time. Otherwise our victories in the last few years have been by under 3 goals usually. When we've led, we've got to have the mental toughness to bury a side not immediately think that they're going to come back. Leaders should tell each and everyone of the players this, but it's not happening it would seem and/or the players think it anyway and hence their mindset is fragile.

Does anyone think that Pagan's tactic of telling some players that they weren't up to AFL was an attempt to find out who was mentally weak and who had the mental toughness to try to prove him wrong? Or was it simply a poor miscalculation?
Author:  Synbad [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was in the social club buying a pie with sauce and a coke on saturday.
While i was waiting in line a guy behind me looked familiar.. looking abit more closely it was an ex North player( club champion)..
Got talking.. then i moved the conversation to Denis. i aksed him if he thought Denis was "passe"... he said.."the problem is alot of players are mentally soft and cant accept Denis ways.
We could and Denis made us succesful"
He then said if you cant do what he asks you may as well not worry about ever winning a flag.. cos to win a flag you have to be capable of making the sacrifices by mind and body... and that some players dont have the fortitude to be capable of going all the way....
... thats not Denis fault..

Got my pie and coke said goodbye and felt alot better about Denis at the helm.
As thats what i thought about things all along.....my suspicions were answered by someone alittle more knowldgeable with what Denis is about than blokes like Sydney Blue... and ryan... and BM...
Author:  AGRO [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Denis still has 3 years, in that time you can turn over an entire list if you have to. :wink:
Author:  Synbad [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Im sure he will .. if he has to!!!!
There is no way he will pamper sulking divas!!!
Author:  baggerblood [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Synbad wrote:
I was in the social club buying a pie with sauce and a coke on saturday.
While i was waiting in line a guy behind me looked familiar.. looking abit more closely it was an ex North player( club champion)..
Got talking.. then i moved the conversation to Denis. i aksed him if he thought Denis was "passe"... he said.."the problem is alot of players are mentally soft and cant accept Denis ways.
We could and Denis made us succesful"
He then said if you cant do what he asks you may as well not worry about ever winning a flag.. cos to win a flag you have to be capable of making the sacrifices by mind and body... and that some players dont have the fortitude to be capable of going all the way....
... thats not Denis fault..

Got my pie and coke said goodbye and felt alot better about Denis at the helm.
As thats what i thought about things all along.....my suspicions were answered by someone alittle more knowldgeable with what Denis is about than blokes like Sydney Blue... and ryan... and BM...


Lovely story Synbad, and I too like the idea of this type of coach.

Unfortunately, though Denis may have to turn over the list indefinitely until he finds players who are prepared to make the sacrifice of mind and body...or he can add some other strings to his bow and find some new ways to motivate and derive the best out of the people on the payroll at the moment. People are all pretty much the same, they'll follow the path of least resistance in order to get the job they have to do done.

I like Denis, think he is a great coach, and is brilliant with everyone from the big coterie groups to the grass roots supporters like Synbad. The thing I worry about is that his message is not dissimilar to what he had success with at the Roos (shin boner spirit, backs to the wall etc) where that type of mantra will be more inclined to work. The culture at Carlton has not been about work ethic for so long (even in the 80's) that it takes time and lots of it apparantly to get it working.

Make no mistake: Denis is every bit as responsible as the players for their under performing this year. Yes, that's right, under performing.
Author:  grrofunger [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
I had Deja Vu of the last time i had to sit amongst preppy eagles supporters and cop a belting and pathetic abuse from them.

"Look at the scoreboard" :roll:
Author:  mikkey [ Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
I hate this simplistic approach the media and most supporters have in regard to who is a good or a bad coach, who is "innovative" or "past it." Win or loose short term is not the way to determine the value of a coach.

There are many components, starting from list available, recruiting and list management, support structure at the club, game day tactics, marketing value with sponsors and supporters etc. etc.

A year or so ago Cornflakes was a genius according to many.....

I am a great believer in strategic long term planning and decision making - both in football and business. Knee jerk stuff gets you nowhere.

We can hate Sheedy as much as we like, but he is one of the greats and to Essendons credit they have persisted with him for a generation - because Sheeds is good at the longterm stuff and good at marketing.

I actually think Sheeds and Pagan have a lot in common and I am sure that the only way forward is to let Pagan re-build the list longterm and trust him. He makes mistakes - so does everybody. But longterm he is the right guy.
Author:  Barney [ Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:58 am ]
Post subject: 
I said at half time, the Eagles will come out and kick 10 goals to 1 this quarter. I was nearly right - they got 10 for the quarter, but we didn't get our 1 until the last.

Didn't make me feel any better...
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