Listened to the above today talking about Carlton and I must say I do have to use this forum to express my point of view on what they said.

Robbo, this evening said the draft picks penalities have not been the problem at Carlton, and I have to say that he may have a point. The problem has been our middle tiered players who have not come on; in fact they have taken a step backwards. I have to agree by in large.

Robbo refers to, whom I believe are the home grown players, such as Davies, Sporn, Deluca (to some degree), Prendergast (whom Stan Alves on ABC radio referred to be potentially a superstar during 2004), Wiggins, Livingston. I think he also makes reference to the 'Foreign Legion' that came at the beginning of 2004 which have spent some time in the reserves this year. The latter players not improving on last year's stellar performances.

The draft picks such as Goddard and Wells etc.,would have helped but it's those players on those middle rungs which have not performed - that have had the experience to call upon go forward in ability - but haven't.

Robert Walls said he is sick of Carlton supporters whinging about the draft picks as Carlton were serial offenders and they have to cop it. He has a point but he is being harsh for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum - i.e. the long term effect on the club and it's potential supporter base, which would only hurt the AFL as well as the supporters; and the change in administration which were not the culprits for the poor decision making, therefore questioning the use in penalising them. I think Rob Walls is making too much of that whinging supporter thing, as any club would be unhappy with the penalties imposed on them that were imposed on Carlton.

Gerard Healy said once that the draft system gives all clubs hope of success - these penalties do not give Carlton supporters and players hope. I hope he speaks to Rob Walls and debriefs him a little. No-one is happy with the penalties, and in our heart of hearts we know we have to cop it, but venting our spleen and expressing passion for our club is not a new phenomena for any club. I'm sure though deep down inside Rob Walls in hurting too, as he truly is a Carlton man.

Go Blues!

Interesting points you make. I agree mostly that our second tier is weak, almost to the point that our youngsters have overtaken them. Add to that our top tier is a small band of players, who are too easily negated.

But Livo going backwards? Compared to what?? I think he's been a little speck of gold (well, if not gold, at least mica) in a turd of a year. I've got faith in Livo. I just wish others did too.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Walls also didn't sound too convinced that Fevola was one of the 5 key players we could build a side around.

Whinging about the draft penalties is a furphy. This is what supporters do (and are very entitled to do) and will continue to do I might tell you .

It is acknowledged that our list is ordinary and needs improvement, and the only way you can do it is via the Draft. You can only bring in 8 to 12 new players a year into the club via the Draft and it takes time to turn over the list.

The AFL have got what they wanted a rotational success policy - clubs spend time at the bottom then climb to the top and then back to the bottom again.

Its not rocket science it is what the AFL want and have succeeded in delivering,

3 to 4 years poor, 3 to 4 years mediocre and 3 to 4 years on top all everyone gets a turn.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Point taken and well expressed KK. Livo may not be part of the equation that I was referring to.

For the record I've had a good whinge about the penalities and will continue to do so.

Go Blues

Carlton made a poor transition from VFL to AFL.
In fact they made the worst transition of any of the VFL clubs.
The supporters should be angry, but the Carlton Football Club is to blame for its current predicament. Carlton's poor onfield record and poor off-field conditions are a direct result of its own mismanagement through the 1990s.
Everything John Elliot has ever touched has turned to shit. And the CFC is no exception.

What is often overlooked as a major concern because of the draconian draft penalties is the relative lack of progress from the players that have been at the club for between 3-5 seasons. Wells, Goddard and someone like McLean would definitely help us and we'd definitely be a better side with them in the current side, and they'd give us more hope for the future.

But just as important a problem and possibly more significant in my book is the following. Luke Livingston, pick 4. Trent Sporn, pick 11. Simon Wiggins, pick 15. Murray Vance, pick 6. Kris Massie, pick 7. These five players all went in the top 15 in the draft in the late 90s-2000. The return the club has got from them on the whole has been one well short of what might have been expected from such a selection of picks. There have been varying reasons for this, Sporn and Livo have had injury troubles, Murray Vance struggled with life in the city, Massie broke his leg etc. Another important reason is that these players, especially Sporn, Livo and Wiggins, i.e. the 2000 draftees, have played their whole careers in a 'losing' environment, and also an environment that saw several club champions leave within a short space of time. They have played and are still playing in a side with a manifest lack of leadership. There is no Michael Voss, Nathan Buckley at Carlton. And who knows, throw them into the Brisbane side of the past few years, and they might have looked like pretty decent players.

The problem is that 4/5 selections (not Vance, who we never really saw) have not vindicated the decision of the recruiting department and whoever else to take them so early in the draft. In other words, we have not seen the progress we might reasonably have expected from picks 4, 7, 11 and 15 in the draft. And this is what's hurting us as much as anything. These blokes should be established AFL players who will play 150+ games of footy. Yet we're just hoping that they even make it as 'good ordinary' players. Wiggins and Sporn have been VFL regulars. Livo is ok and has improved but nothing to write home about.

As I've said there are mitigating factors that can be argued. But these players have to be doing more than they are. This is a big reason why we are where we are. The draft picks that we missed out on hurt but the players already at the club haven't come on as might have been expected.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Also hurting us is the trading away of high draft picks for over the hill hacks like Mansfield & O'Reilly and failing to draft any young talented kids in those years, which has left us with hardly any players aged 24-30.

This forum has discussed the various reasons for our demise many times. Robert Walls should not necessarily dump on the supporters who have been relatively patient during these dark years. In fact Walls changes his attitude to many issues many times.

Correct..for all our early picks we didnt get any real impact players and this group should have provided us with some quality core regulars.....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Problem with those draftees was that they were picked thinking that they might grow a few more cm's into a CHB....should've just picked the best available player

Yeah, agree with this. Walls is very harsh on us at times.

I sometimes wonder if there isn't some bitterness over his sacking as coach?

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

ROBBO not great analytical mind and one for glib lines and Wallsy not really consistent with analysis and too ready to blame elliot for everything without looking at all the factors
Agree with everyone that previous drafting and trading 1997 - 2001 has been poor and in part is costing us but to say that losing the early picks which we could have effectively got goddard wells and mclean plus others is absolute crap -yes we wouldnt be world beaters but a hell of a lot better than now - add wells and mclean to our midfield as well as perhaps goddard or have him playing on the hbf the side and future looks immeasurably better
yes we cheated and deserved to be punished but penalties way too harsh and just indicated the afl payback to elliott - but they ended up penalising us -rather than elliott - They effectively tried to murder us and for that we should always hate them

The draft penalties were way too harsh and no doubt they're costing us now. Throw Goddard, Wells etc into the side and already we're better. But it hurts with the other guys (Livo, Sporn etc) because we've actually had them at the club for a number of years and had/have the chance to see the best of them. With the players we missed out on, well we can't do anything about it anyway. Hope that makes some sort of sense .

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

The draft penalties have certainly taken a massive toll. The players we missed out on would've made a huge difference AFAIC.

From 2002
Brendan Goddard
Daniel Wells
Brent Moloney (PSD - picked up by Geelong @ no.4)

From 2003
Brock McLean
Alex Gilmour (yet to make debut)

That's three (or four) certain starters through the middle and a running half back with great disposal (which we're desperate for)

Our midfield rotations could include - Kouta, Stevo, Campo, Walker, McLean, Moloney, Wells. That's pretty handy!!! Considering it is in the middle were we keep getting smashed week in, week out it infuriates me when people try to belittle the penalties by saying how much of an impact have they had. Absolutely MASSIVE!!!!

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C'mon Blueboys!

Middle tier players look a lot better when there are two or three genuine gun players in the team. Our middle tier players don't have that.

I reckon it's a bit short sighted saying that the draft penalities can't be blamed for our predicament. They were the harshest penalties ever handed down.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I think Deano that most people think that they are a large contributor to our predicament. I'm just disappointed though that we had 5 top 15 picks in the late 90s-2000 and for varying reasons not one has gone on at this stage to become a player who has even gone close to justifying the pick which we used to get him.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

I was staggered to find myself agreeing whole-heartedly with Robbo. Normally I think he is a twit.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

You guys agree?

Davies, Sporn, Prendergast, Wiggins, Livingston and all of those blokes have never really gone forwards a whole lot so besides Prenda, you can't say they've gone backwards. Infact, Livo's made some progress, as has Davies and as has Wiggins. Prenda's gone backwards a heap and Sporn and all those other blokes have just stopped, won't go forwards won't go back.

The 'they haven't progressed point' is actually not bad, because it's true. They haven't made any substantial progress. But the gone backwards bit is wrong because none of them (besides Prenda) has moved forward enough to have gone backwards.

His second point about the recycled players is absolute crap. Why did we get these blokes? Because we didn't have draft picks to rebuild in the first place.

Where right to complain as much as we want about the picks. Sure, the blokes mentioned in the first paragraph haven't gone forwards but how many players have been at the bottom of the ladder for 90% of the time they've been at a club, been around a bunch of blokes who don't wanna play and have had noone around them to really support them. Not many.

What would St Kilda be if they didn't have there draft picks? They wouldn't have Riewoldt, Kossi, Dal Santo, noone. They would've recruited players to fill those positions like we did and they would be in the same position and flower like Robert Walls would be saying the same thing there saying about us. "It wasn't the draft picks blah blah blah."

The misuse of our draft picks back in the day has hurt us and when we've needed them we haven't had them. It all goes back to draft picks. Draft picks were the problem... we haven't been able to use any... its killed us... can't wait till '06

I found myself agreeing with him also BM, amazingly!!!

I still think the players we missed out through the penalties is being grossly undervalued. We would be well on our way to having an elite on0ball brigade for the next 10 years if we weren't raped!

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C'mon Blueboys!