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Measure of a great Club
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Author:  Jaykay [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Measure of a great Club
Some interesting threads going round - trade this player, trade that player, to tank or not to tank, CSC in strife, and so on.

I need a change.

I know that I support the very best club in the AFL. Carlton is the only Club I have ever supported or ever will. But there are supporters out there (can you believe it?) that feel much the same about their club as I feel about mine.

So I got to thinking about it. How can we make direct comparisons? A comparison that has less to do with emotion and more to do with reality.

So I got to thinking that it might be useful to look at all AFL clubs and come up with some empirical measure/evidence for what makes them great - or otherwise.

Let's get away from the motherhood statements that talk about CULTURE, about PRIDE IN THE JUMPER, and all those other attributes that, frankly, will be claimed by every other club.

For a moment, let's get away from the number of PREMIERSHIPS won, or wooden spoons awarded when we compare our club with any other.

Let's, just for a change, look at how well clubs have managed their players. Good players arrive on the doorstep of every club at some time or another - but how successful has that club been at realising the potential of those players?

How many players have left a club to become champion, or at least good, players at some other club? For the purpose of this exercise - the reason that they left should not be taken into account. Whether they jumped or were pushed really makes no difference. They left to fight for another club, another jumper. Oh, and let's make it, say, 40 games played for their new club to qualify.

We need a time frame - so let's have a look at the 15 years between 1990 and 2005.

For example - St Kilda: lost Plugger, Wakelin 1, Wakelin 2, Everitt, Barry Hall, Lappin (and probably others).

Dockers: lost Bell, White, Clement, Abraham (not sure that Winston qualifies with games played), Croad, Sinclaire.

These are a few that spring to mind with just two of the clubs.

It would be interesting to tap into that vast football knowledge at TC to complete the picture. Pick a club - any club, and see how many you can come up with.

We could allocate 1 point for each player - and, like in golf, highest number loses - lowest number wins.

I will keep a tally - and on Friday afternoon publish the results.

Go to it.
Author:  Jarusa [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Those who left (all games data to the end of 2004):

Adelaide

Player Games (at other clubs)
Anthony Ingerson 121
Martin McKinnon 54
Sean Wellman 178
Jason McCartney 107
Tony Modra 47
Lance Picicoane 58
Peter Vardy 41

Brisbane

Mark Roberts 125
Darren Jarman 109
Brad Rowe 51
Nathan Buckley 223
John Barker 100
Adrian Fletcher 79
Rory Hilton 72
Trent Bartlett 41
Matthew Clarke 94
Jarrod Molloy 49
Trent Knobel 41
Des Headland 42

Carlton

Simon Minton-Connell 46
James Cook 49
Ben Harrison 74
Troy Bond 68
Aaron Hamill 77
Mark Porter 55
Kris Massie 41

Collingwood

Gavin Rose 55
Brad Boyd 70
James Manson 47
Brett Chalmers 50
Brenton Sanderson 188
Robert Powell 56
Mark Orchard 41
Brett James 76
Robert Ahmat 42
Andrew Schauble 84
Clinton King 58
Paul Williams 86
Malcolm Michael 97

Essendon*

Craig O'Brien 52
John Barnes 144
Dale Kickett 135
Paul Salmon 100
Che Cockatoo-Collins 75
Damien Hardwick 54
Wanganeen ??

Fitzroy

Ken Hinkley 121 *pre 1990
Darren Kappler 59
Jason Taylor 80
Gary Pert 70
John Blakey 224
Paul Broderick 169
Michael Gale 91
Alastair Lynch 186
Marcus Seecamp 89
Matthew Armstrong 43
Ben Holland 125

Fremantle

Darryl Wakelin 115
Glenn Freeborn 55
Andrew McLeod 215
Jeff Farmer 118
Brad Wira 61
Gavin Mitchell 52
Jeff White 152
Winston Abraham 72
Kingsley Hunter 57
Jess Sinclair 70
James Clement 88
Brodie Holland 72
Heath Black 54
Leigh Brown 43
Adam McPhee 45

Geelong

Sean Denham 142
Robert Scott 113
Adrian Hickmott 134
Shayne Breuer 54
Aaron Lord 93
Matthew Robbins 90
Craig Biddiscombe 44
Michael Mansfield 54
Leigh Colbert 83
Clint Bizzell 58

Hawthorn

Paul Harding 62 * pre 1990
Russell Morris 66
Dean Anderson 67
Matthew Robran 130
Greg Dear 53
Andrew Gowers 56
Scott Crow 62
Alex McDonald 61
Darren Jarman 121
Paul Barnard 140
Brad Scott 111
Michael Collica 50

Kangaroos

Ron De Iulio 104
Dean McRae 61
Leigh Tudor 60
Liam Pickering 102
John McCarthy 71
Brad Sholl 169
Alastair Clarkson 41
Wayne Schwass 98
Mark Stevens 99
Cameron Mooney 74
Scott Welsh 79
Kent Kingsley 77
Peter Bell 85
Corey McKernan 41
Stuart Cochrane 41
Byron Pickett 40

Melbourne

Earl Spalding 102
Anthony Lovell 43
Trent Ormond-Allen 42
Nathan Bassett 127
Troy Longmuir 55
Matthew Bishop 96
Jeff Farmer 62
Troy Simmonds 64
Shane Woewodin 47

Port Adelaide

Tom Harley 115
Scott Cummings 46
Nathan Eagleton 94
Matthew Bode 53

Richmond

Peter Wilson 117
Trevor Poole 54
Jeff Hogg 40
Justin Murphy 79
Chris Bond 41
Steven McKee 64
Ben Harrison 82

St Kilda

Paul Harding 43
Jayson Daniels 58
Tony Lockett 95
Gilbert McAdam 58
Craig O'Brien 41
Matthew Lappin 137
Darryl Wakelin 87
Matthew Carr 75
Barry Hall 65

Sydney

Bernard Toohey 40
Greg Williams 109
Dion Scott 73
Richard Osborne 51
Jayson Daniels 41
Darren Kappler 41
Peter Caven 82
Anthony Rocca 158
Shannon Grant 156
Simon Garlick 137
Paul Licuria 128
Troy Cook 106
Greg Stafford 46

West Coast

Alex Ishchenko 42 *pre1990
Mark Zanotti 64 *pre1990
Dean Laidley 99
Matthew Connell 96
Ben Robbins 52
Shane Bond 57
Brayden Lyle 90
Jarrad Schofield 131
Jason Ball 69
Fraser Gehrig 76

Western Bulldogs

Luke Beveridge 45
Kym Koster 95
Tyson Lane 42
Stephen Powell 44
Leon Cameron 84
Brett Montgomery 103
Author:  Ponkstar [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Does Trent Hotton count?

Oh, and JayKay you forgot Stephen O'Reilly from the Dockers :oops:
Author:  drsilvagni [ Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Measure of a great Club
Of course, you can "look at how well clubs have managed their players" or you could consider how much we were paying above the salary cap to manage those players...
Author:  HTP [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I will keep a tally - and on Friday afternoon publish the results.

Go to it.


Followed immediately by ...

Quote:
Jarusa Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those who left (all games data to the end of 2004):

Adelaide

Player Games (at other clubs)
Anthony Ingerson 121
Martin McKinnon 54
Sean Wellman 178

etc


HID, you are SUCH a spoilsport! Let the the other kids play too!
Author:  Jarusa [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:57 am ]
Post subject: 
:lol: can't help it. At least I didn't add the points up. :lol:

There are probably a few players I've missed. :wink:
Author:  BrizzyBlue [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jarusa wrote:
:lol: can't help it. At least I didn't add the points up. :lol:

There are probably a few players I've missed. :wink:


Bloody Geeky Propellor Head, gotta spoil the party, haven't ya? :P 8)
Author:  Headplant [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jarusa wrote:

Essendon*

John Barnes 144


I think John Barnes left Geelong to play 144+ games at Essendon* (the + is because he is still playing on-field blocking holes and coaching in an irridescent green jumper).
Author:  The Vet [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
But what was really impressive was it only took 10 minutes!!!!! :shock:
Author:  Jarusa [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have spreadsheets.



Lots of spreadsheets. :shock:
Author:  camel [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I didn't know about Jarman starting at Brisbane, nor McLeod at Freo. :oops:
Author:  Jaykay [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bloody Hell, Jarusa!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...you remind of a kid we had in my 6th Grade class that knew everything - and was always first to put his hands up. (Interestingly, he could not play football to save himself - but all the girls and teachers loved him - the girls in particular.) Where were you in 1960?

(Begrudgingly) Fantastic effort!

With a few additions from the thousands of other contributers out there - I will bring your spreadsheet up to date - and - look at constructing a Ladder of Shame. (.....if that's OK by you?)

_____________________________________________________________

NOTE FOR SELF 1: "Never, ever get into an argument with a man armed with a spreadsheet."

NOTE FOR SELF 2: "That man Jarusa............. He has spreadsheets ......... and is not afraid to use them."

NOTE FOR SELF 3: He's not so great, he is only human after all, there are things he does not know, he may have other weaknesses (check for leaf outline on archilies heel) - did not know how many games Wanganeen has played for Port. WHAT ELSE DOES HE NOT KNOW???

Love your work, Jarusa.

Now, for the rest us mere mortals - check Jarusa's list and make any additions (or subtractions) you know to be correct (see NOTE FOR SELF 1).
Author:  Jarusa [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
My list only counts games to the end of 2004, so there are probably a few players who have crept over the 40 game mark during this season.

Just cos I have got a spreadsheet it does not mean I know anything, it only means I know how to cut and paste from my spreadsheet. :lol:

Looking forward to seeing the ladder of shame. :)
Author:  St Fidelius [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
camelboy wrote:
I didn't know about Jarman starting at Brisbane, nor McLeod at Freo. :oops:


shame on you camel :wink: :wink:

I gave you the draft history ages ago....
Author:  Headplant [ Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think Fitzroy lost Paul Roos too ....
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