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Congratulations also...
http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4708		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Cyclonus [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Congratulations also...
... to everyone on this site for surely realising that if a playing list has ever needed a priority pick, it is us.

To those who were under the impression that Carlton don't need an extra pick in the top 5 of the draft. That a winning culture is all you need, and the rest will take care of itself. Anti-taking, Pro-Tanking, whatever your stance - today has to have driven the message home to everyone in both camps: We truly don't have the talent.

Have just finished watching the replay after a long night shift, so apologies for my late night rant.

To the people who were all for getting the PP: Congratulations. It would seem we have it, and regardless of whether we obtained it deliberately or not, few will ever know. But we have it, and we need it, and for long-term realists it's cause for celebration

To the people who were against it: Please show me proof that we don't need it. Give me theories, facts and figures, statistics, any form of data that will convince me that our list can consistently match it with anyone else's without draft concessions.

If we were tanking today: We did a good job of it. For any team to resort to tanking, they must have a deep and serious understanding of their own lists' massive deficiencies, and are taking such desperate measures to correct them.

If we weren't: Then things are even worse than the above scenario. We have genuinely tried to beat one of the worst lists in the competition, and fell 100-odd points short, even with a full strength list of our own.

Regardless of which camp you're in, from both points of view all the evidence now points in one direction: We NEED that pick. Worse than anyone could have imagined prior to now.
Author:  sandramd [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:09 am ]
Post subject: 
very very very true!!!

We have some good young prospects on our list Bentick Carazzo and the like but at this point in time they are just that. so lets not bust our asses and gain some more prospects.

And the statement that we have a good side that they are just out of form what garbage. We have youth and lots of it and that takes time to develop into consistency and the others that dont reach that point are put to the curb.
Author:  The Tyrant [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
"constructive"
Author:  mjonc [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Congratulations also...
Cyclonus wrote:
... to everyone on this site for surely realising that if a playing list has ever needed a priority pick, it is us.

To those who were under the impression that Carlton don't need an extra pick in the top 5 of the draft. That a winning culture is all you need, and the rest will take care of itself. Anti-taking, Pro-Tanking, whatever your stance - today has to have driven the message home to everyone in both camps: We truly don't have the talent.

Have just finished watching the replay after a long night shift, so apologies for my late night rant.

To the people who were all for getting the PP: Congratulations. It would seem we have it, and regardless of whether we obtained it deliberately or not, few will ever know. But we have it, and we need it, and for long-term realists it's cause for celebration

To the people who were against it: Please show me proof that we don't need it. Give me theories, facts and figures, statistics, any form of data that will convince me that our list can consistently match it with anyone else's without draft concessions.

If we were tanking today: We did a good job of it. For any team to resort to tanking, they must have a deep and serious understanding of their own lists' massive deficiencies, and are taking such desperate measures to correct them.

If we weren't: Then things are even worse than the above scenario. We have genuinely tried to beat one of the worst lists in the competition, and fell 100-odd points short, even with a full strength list of our own.

Regardless of which camp you're in, from both points of view all the evidence now points in one direction: We NEED that pick. Worse than anyone could have imagined prior to now.


Question: Can you guarantee to me and all other anti-tank supporters that our priority pick will be a marquee player?

That is what i want in return for a wooden spoon in the history books.
Author:  Humpers [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well written Cyclonus.

I was a very happy man at the conclusion of the match against Essendon*.

If ever a club needed a PP it is Carlton 2005.
Author:  Blue Bird [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Humpers wrote:

I was a very happy man at the conclusion of the match against Essendon*.

If ever a club needed a PP it is Carlton 2005.


You see I just can't get past that first sentence. Agree about the need to get some elite talent and I'm not sorry we have just about guaranteed the picks HOWEVER the day I am happy on the end of a 100 point shellacking from Essendon* is the day I desert football and take up macrame.
Author:  ScottSaunders [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Humpers wrote:
Well written Cyclonus.

I was a very happy man at the conclusion of the match against Essendon*.

If ever a club needed a PP it is Carlton 2005.


and that is what i for one cant understand!

how in the hell can anyone be happy after that game. :shock: :?
Author:  Cyclonus [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Congratulations also...
mjonc wrote:
Question: Can you guarantee to me and all other anti-tank supporters that our priority pick will be a marquee player?


Of course not. But I can guarantee we are much more likely to get one with picks 1 and 4, than with plain old pick 5.

What I will guarantee you though, is this: There's a far better chance of us becoming a good team with the injection of two Top 5 picks, than there is of our current band of late draft picks and recycled players forming to become a consistently competitive unit.

And regardless of who wanted or didn't want the spoon MJONC, we got it anyway. Let's hope the team were playing for it, otherwise we're in even more trouble than we thought.

ps: No, I wasn't happy at all with the result against Essendon*. As much I know we need the draft picks, I still watch every game foolishly hoping we win. All the Essendon* game did was took the reality of our shortcomings, and beat me into submission with it.
Author:  BrianSetzer1 [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good stuff Cyclonus, i'd love 2 know also how those people against the PP expect us to improve without having a chance 2 pick quality youngsters!!!
Author:  verbs [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
ThePrez wrote:
Humpers wrote:
Well written Cyclonus.

I was a very happy man at the conclusion of the match against Essendon*.

If ever a club needed a PP it is Carlton 2005.


and that is what i for one cant understand!

how in the hell can anyone be happy after that game. :shock: :?


I can't understand this thread. Where has anyone said they "don't want the PP"? It would be interesting if someone could dig up an actual quote, but we all know what the result would be.

To quote someone else: "constructive".
Author:  dannyboy [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
I love the way being against tanking equals being against the P.P's.

it plainly does not - 'course some here wish to argue that way - seems its a common idea, make everything simple, back and white, so it takes no brains, no morality, no ethics, no anything. You are for me or 'agin me.

Simplistic reasoning used throughout history to convert the masses.

it seems the masses are happily converted.

Great.


ya go Essendon*.


Go Nth.

Go Demitripoo poo

go everyone

oh and all you anti tanker bastards are so UnAustralian!

I think we need detention centres of anti-tankers.

Soulless brainless gutless (insert next piece of progaganda here)

I think Adolf would be a Tanker!

I think George Bush would be a tanker

Stalin too

in fact anyone who has used the same method.

belittle, demean, and above all
keep the terms of reference as simplistic as possible.

What you do want to lose = we do not need picks, we think we have a brilliant list, (in the background that old song 'rose coloured glasses....') etc.
Author:  ScottSaunders [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
never give up the fight DB, to quote the great man, we shall never surrender.

i will resist the lure of the PP until the end of the season.

then, let come what may, i will look at it and support what ever happens.
Author:  BlueMark [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
I go to every game wanting us to win. I go to every game wanting every player to play well. I cheer when they do well, I groan when when they stuff up. But I still cheer for them. I thought that what supporting your team was all about. Apparently not.

Winning the spoon this year will not sit well with me, even trying to rationalise it with PPs will not ease the angst that I feel. Dennis was gutted on Sunday with the teams performance as was I.

How can a person can go to the footy every week, hoping that we lose, hoping that certain players play poorly is something that I cannot fathom., nor do I want to.

But clearly some can, good luck to them.

Me, Sunday hurt sas does the spoon and in a way I am glad that it does. Because win or lose. I love the club and I love the players. I celebrate the wins, mourn the losses. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
Author:  ScottSaunders [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
verbs wrote:
ThePrez wrote:
Humpers wrote:
Well written Cyclonus.

I was a very happy man at the conclusion of the match against Essendon*.

If ever a club needed a PP it is Carlton 2005.


and that is what i for one cant understand!

how in the hell can anyone be happy after that game. :shock: :?


I can't understand this thread. Where has anyone said they "don't want the PP"? It would be interesting if someone could dig up an actual quote, but we all know what the result would be.

To quote someone else: "constructive".


ive said it many times.

i dont want the PP if it means we are losing deliberatly.

if we finish last, with only 4 wins, then so be it, but i will never condone nor support losing to get a PP.

IMO a massive difference.
Author:  Beantown [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
I really feel for the kids who get picked up with our early picks this year, they're on a hiding to nothing. They play well then of course they have thats whats expected of them. If they play crap then people will point and say see ( waving their finger ).

Our team hasn't tanked we just havn't been good enough and not just in playing personel it's right accross the board. I'm a big admirer of Pagans but the heavy losses to teams like Essendon* and Richmond suggest he's struggling to motivate them. Either move on the playing deadwood or the coach.

I'm supporting the coach on this one.
Author:  Mrs Caz [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
dannyboy wrote:
I love the way being against tanking equals being against the P.P's.

it plainly does not - 'course some here wish to argue that way - seems its a common idea, make everything simple, back and white, so it takes no brains, no morality, no ethics, no anything. You are for me or 'agin me.



danny, it is the reverse of those that said because we wanted the PP, we were advocating deliberately losing to get it.

People only ever hear what they want to hear. No wonder there are so many wars in the world.
Author:  BlueMark [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Some did want us to lose Mrs C. They were quite clear about it.

Not all, but some.
Author:  Mrs Caz [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Some turned that way Bluemark, but 6 months ago it all started out as "we are shit, we will probably finish last, we sure could use that PP".

That eventually turned into the ring-around-a-rosy we have been listening to for the last 3 months.
Author:  jbee [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
BlueMark wrote:
Some did want us to lose Mrs C. They were quite clear about it.

Not all, but some.


Don't blame the people blame the system.
Author:  2ndeffort [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
quite honestly, the PP's are the only glimmer of hope in a sea of despair. Our only real competition for the PPs is the filth who at least have the excuse of several 1st team regulars injured.

I once read somewhere that sports teams sell hope to their supporters. Right now we are so bad that the draft picks are the only hope that we have.

I never thought I would see the CFC down so low. After 2003 I thought that the only way was up.....I was wrong, way wrong!

I hate losing and I want to see the blues win every time they play, but at some point reality has to kick in. I wouldnt say I am pro or anti tank. I want to see the blues win and I was rapt to thump the pies, but another, more rational side of me says that we have to learn to play the game that is the AFL Draft, and learn to play it better than anybody else. I just hope that the administration down at the club can get something right in the off-season. The playing list is clearly not up to it, our only hope is that we get smart in using the system to advantage from this day forward.
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