TalkingCarlton :: View topic - A sobering list that should be mandatory reading!

No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting.

Speaking of List management, I did some research on Carltons Draft record over the last few years. In particular I have highlighted some of the more ridiculous trade/drafting decisions made. Check it out:

1995: Traded forst round pick (no19) for Craig Devonport, who played a whole one game for the blues. Swans used the pick to draft Barry Hall.

1996 Traded two draft selections (19 and 65) for collingwoods Mick McGuane, who played three games for the blues. Players still in the draft at pick 19 included Jason Johnson, Jess Sinclair, Johnathon Hay, Stephen Powell, and Byron Pickett.

1997 Only trade was for Sean Charles who played one game.

1999 Traded away early selections for Stephen O'Reilly and Michael Mansfied. First pick in that draft was at 60, and Richrad Kelly was taken with it.

Very sad stuff isnt it?

Try Collingwood who took Fraser over Pavlich and Haselby. (Stand to be corrected on Haselby)

MAGPIE RECRUITMENT....a fan's view

Poor old Mick...not like it's his fault......and I wholeheartedly agree with him that wholesale changes should be made. Let's see.....I think we should bring in:

Mal Michael... oooops forgot he was traded for Jarrad Molloy. Maybe Molloy could come in.. oh no that's right, he's about 15 kegs overweight and retired, as opposed to 10 kegs overweight and still playing.

Why don't we bring in Andrew Schauble, could help in defence. damn, traded him too. who for again? Mark Kinnear. that's right, MARK Kinnear. I guess the goal there was to prove that Ben wasn't the worst Kinnear that ever played. job done.

Josh Hunt would be handy with his accurate long kicking from defence. What's that? We traded that draft pick for Carl Steinfort. Isn't he a manager at wizard home loans now? Guess he could give Noel Judkins some advice on how to invest his redundancy payout.

Damian Adkins would be more than handy with his pace and long kicking I mean he does get a game with a team 7-0. Silly me, Andrew Williams was his replacement. a sh-tter footballer you're never likely to see, although Shane O'Bree may take that challenge as some sort of personal affront. if his last name was Kinnear I'd get the joke. At the moment I'm not laughing

Richard Hadley? Sh-t! - traded his draft pick for the pick for Ryan Lonie. Who? Plays at Williamstown. oh, him. yeah, real hard man, voted 4th hardest player in league. no, the lions weren't take the mickey were they?

Daniel Bell. Yeah, he's promising. 6'3", quick, athletic. pity he was the pick given away for Woewodin. Woewoful makes Lonie look tough.

Nick Dal Santo. Maybe next year, but what about in the 2001 draft? No. Pick 11 would be much better spent on Richard "accountable" Cole, the only man who appears to take the instruction "play him close" as a license to adopt some sort of Detroit Pistons style zone defence versus Shaq. I swear to christ I watch him sometimes and he's looking up at the sky while the ball is up for grabs daydreaming. Maybe he likes planes? A looser player you're unlikely to find. OK, I agree, we'll take Cole at 11 and let the saints get Dal Santo at 13. Noel thinks its for the best.

Sav Rocca would be a presence in the square with Anthony out. All we'd have to do is get him to lead to the boundary, put him in no 23 and tell him to lead wide and let his man run off and no one would know the difference. What? We DELISTED him. Not even a Mark Kinnear in return? You sure? That can't be right. Who did we get as a replacement at the draft. SCOTT CUMMINGS? Must be a misprint. Must be.

Matthew Pavlich would be awesome although he might battle when having to receive the footy from Rhyce Shaw instead of Paul Hasleby. Forgot. Traded pick 3 (Pavlich went 4) to the Tigers for Steve Mckee and pick 7 (Danny Roach). I think I know Mckee. Isn't he the guy that now holds up the big whiteboard at the quarter time huddle (no sh-t, check it out next time Pies on TV). As for Danny Roach, didn't he retire at age 20? Must have played some good footy before that though? 1 game! Really? How many touches? 1! What did he do with it? OUT ON THE FULL!!!

Surely you jest. Oh well, why don't we go for what we do have. We could bring in David King, Matthew Lokan, or anyone with the surname Shaw. Seriously, is there an age limit on the father-son rule coz it's not too late to turn Jock McHale jnr into a pretty reasonable CHF. Sure, he's 60+ but he couldn't possibly look slow in the pies line-up. NOPE. Pies are done. Micky must DIE. All this happened on his watch.

If you need me I'll be at crown watching Liverpool on the telly, downing pots, and telling anyone who'll listen that Leigh Walker could've been anything if he'd just had Ben Kinnear's knees.

No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting.

Saints drafted Barry Hall, not Swans.

Drafting/Trading isn't an exact science and never has been. Its fine to say these players were available, but chances are we wouldn't have drafted them anyway.

Most of the players you mentioned as still being available were also passed on by 15 other clubs.

How would you go being a Fremantle supporter and looking at some of their trades and the players they missed drafting.

Try Collingwood who took Fraser over Pavlich and Haselby. (Stand to be corrected on Haselby)

Every club will have their missed opportunities and stuff up's

TruBlueBrad wrote:

TBB

Its true that clubs all have been guilty of missed opportunites come draft time and also that drafting is not an exact science.

The point of bringing up these horror stories was to show that the Blues have clearly not been active in drafts in the past, and have simply topped up the list. The ole "Carlton never rebuild" mentality of the Jack era if you like. These examples prove that our list was always going to become mediocre because the previous administration did not adequately plan for the future. It also shows that there are more reasons than just "Black Friday" for where the list is at right now.

Blue Bird wrote:

No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting.

Sure good ol Col made a big booby that night.............has anyone not made a mistake in their life.

I reckon it's time Col comes back into the fold and takes up a possie on the board. The board has had no real change in personnel for 3 years and were right for the moment. That moment has now passed. Time for some youthful exhuberance and energy.

I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Agree with that. Regarding 'Black Friday' I would also say that Nick Stevens cancels out one of the selections as he's a ready made player that fell into our lap.

TruBlueBrad wrote:

Agree with that. Regarding 'Black Friday' I would also say that Nick Stevens cancels out one of the selections as he's a ready made player that fell into our lap.

Can't agree with this.

This is like the assumption that we made up for Goddard and Wells with Simpson and Fisher. Simpson and Fisher may end up better than Goddard and Wells or they may not but we should have had "Simpson, Fisher, Goddard and Wells" rather than just two of them.

If you want to see what a good drafting booty looks like take a peak at the Bullies drafts in 1999 and 2000:

1999
Robert Murphy
Daniel Giansiracusa
Mitchell Hahn
Ryan Hargrave
Lindsay Gilbee

2000
Jordan McMahon
Shane Birss
Daniel Cross
Wade Skipper

That's 9 players in two drafts. All are now regular senior players and most are only playing good consistent football now 5-6 years after they entered the system (with the exception of Murphy who was a first rounder and a precocious talent from the beginning).

So are Fisher, Simpson and Stevens compensation for Goddard and Wells?

We should have had all of them.

(Patrick Wiggins was also selected in 1999 and is the only "miss" from that period)

Author:	7dominator [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:29 am ]
Post subject:	A sobering list that should be mandatory reading!
Can we make a sticky of this.Perhaps then when the next Elliot apologist or "head in the sand" supporter tries to argue that things were fine in 2002,can be quickly put in line! Here is the list that Pagan inherited at the end of 2002..WITHOUT the benefit of draft picks Allan...Injury problems and loss of form Beasy...Did'nt cut it and is now struggling at Bendigo Beaumont...Finished when he went to the Hawks.Struggling and only 29 now. Bradley....was 38 Bray....who? Campbell....No good Camporeale.. Christou...Struggled with injury and form...finished Cranage...no good Davies... Davis....No good Doering....Good VFL footballer Eccles...no good Fletcher....no good Fevola..... Franchina...Was struggling Freeborn...Just! Gallagher....who Hickmott...finished...was about to turn 31 Hotton...Was 29 and struggling. Houlahan... Hulme...Given plenty of chances Kouta.....Crippled with injury Lappin... Livingston.....Still has'nt made it! Mansfield...Too old Too slow Manton....Nearing the end Mathews....did'nt make it McKay....Great but was 32! McKernan....Nuff said! Merrington...Did'nt cut it! Murphy....Struggling at Essendon* O.Keefe....Playing at Sandy Pickering....Got sacked at Richmond Plunkett....not good enough Prendergast....A Pagan favourite who still cannot get a game! Ratten....Great,but was 31 Smith....who Sporn....Still struggling Thornton... Waite...... Whitnall.... Wiggins....Still struggling .

Author:	Blue Bird [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:34 am ]
Post subject:
No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting.

Author:	Rhys26 [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:38 am ]
Post subject:
Blue Bird wrote: No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting. Didn't he call carlton fans "white ants"

Author:	JohnM [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:
He did indeed. Really knew how to work a room, did Col.

Author:	keogh [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:
Excellent research and Pagan has obviously achieved a miracle with the wizard,but no more excuses from now on.

TalkingCarlton http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

A sobering list that should be mandatory reading! http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4744	Page 1 of 4

Author:	AIRCAV [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:21 pm ]
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Spot on blueBird. I remmeber being at the meeting, not knowing anything about Delutis and thinking that maybe he would be good for the club. He opened his mouth and after about 5 secs it dawned on everyone at Moonee Valley that he was an absolute idiot. Lucky to escape alive. Should have changed name to Con Deluded.

Author:	darknavy [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:
So theres 13 guys still on the list Camporeale Davies Fevola Houlihan Koutafides Lappin Livingston Prendergast Sporn Thorton Waite Whitnall Wiggins According to users on this site Campo - Trade Davies - Delist Fevola - Trade Houla - Trade Kouta - Retire Lappin - Trade Livo - Delist Prenda - Delist Sporn - Delist Thorton - Champion Waite - Champion Whitnall - Trade Wiggins - Delist According to darknavy Keep all except Prendergast - otherwise there will be no players at the club who will have played 100 games in Navy Blue

Author:	Humpers [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:
The following players should have comments against them as detailed below: Camporeale: best days behind him Davies: can't cut mustard at AFL level Houlihan: average AFL player Whitnall: see Camporeale It makes you realise what a terrible position we were in back at the end of 2002. With the PP's coming our way and the additions of players such as Simpson, Fisher, Walker, Stevens, Scotland, Bentick, Russel, Blackwell & Hartlett things are looking a lot more rosy than they were a few years ago.

Author:	BluesRockMyWorld [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:
Speaking of List management, I did some research on Carltons Draft record over the last few years. In particular I have highlighted some of the more ridiculous trade/drafting decisions made. Check it out: 1995: Traded forst round pick (no19) for Craig Devonport, who played a whole one game for the blues. Swans used the pick to draft Barry Hall. 1996 Traded two draft selections (19 and 65) for collingwoods Mick McGuane, who played three games for the blues. Players still in the draft at pick 19 included Jason Johnson, Jess Sinclair, Johnathon Hay, Stephen Powell, and Byron Pickett. 1997 Only trade was for Sean Charles who played one game. 1999 Traded away early selections for Stephen O'Reilly and Michael Mansfied. First pick in that draft was at 60, and Richrad Kelly was taken with it. Very sad stuff isnt it?

Author:	CK95 [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:
BluesRockMyWorld wrote: Speaking of List management, I did some research on Carltons Draft record over the last few years. In particular I have highlighted some of the more ridiculous trade/drafting decisions made. Check it out: 1995: Traded forst round pick (no19) for Craig Devonport, who played a whole one game for the blues. Swans used the pick to draft Barry Hall. 1996 Traded two draft selections (19 and 65) for collingwoods Mick McGuane, who played three games for the blues. Players still in the draft at pick 19 included Jason Johnson, Jess Sinclair, Johnathon Hay, Stephen Powell, and Byron Pickett. 1997 Only trade was for Sean Charles who played one game. 1999 Traded away early selections for Stephen O'Reilly and Michael Mansfied. First pick in that draft was at 60, and Richrad Kelly was taken with it. Very sad stuff isnt it?

Author:	TruBlueBrad [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:
Saints drafted Barry Hall, not Swans. Drafting/Trading isn't an exact science and never has been. Its fine to say these players were available, but chances are we wouldn't have drafted them anyway. Most of the players you mentioned as still being available were also passed on by 15 other clubs. How would you go being a Fremantle supporter and looking at some of their trades and the players they missed drafting. Try Collingwood who took Fraser over Pavlich and Haselby. (Stand to be corrected on Haselby) Every club will have their missed opportunities and stuff up's

Author:	thehalford [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:
TruBlueBrad wrote: Try Collingwood who took Fraser over Pavlich and Haselby. (Stand to be corrected on Haselby) No correction needed. In 1999 the order ws Fraser, Hasleby, Fiora , Pavlich, Brown. As for Collingwood's recruiting - this is from demonology and bloody amusing. Quote: MAGPIE RECRUITMENT....a fan's view Poor old Mick...not like it's his fault......and I wholeheartedly agree with him that wholesale changes should be made. Let's see.....I think we should bring in: Mal Michael... oooops forgot he was traded for Jarrad Molloy. Maybe Molloy could come in.. oh no that's right, he's about 15 kegs overweight and retired, as opposed to 10 kegs overweight and still playing. Why don't we bring in Andrew Schauble, could help in defence. damn, traded him too. who for again? Mark Kinnear. that's right, MARK Kinnear. I guess the goal there was to prove that Ben wasn't the worst Kinnear that ever played. job done. Josh Hunt would be handy with his accurate long kicking from defence. What's that? We traded that draft pick for Carl Steinfort. Isn't he a manager at wizard home loans now? Guess he could give Noel Judkins some advice on how to invest his redundancy payout. Damian Adkins would be more than handy with his pace and long kicking I mean he does get a game with a team 7-0. Silly me, Andrew Williams was his replacement. a sh-tter footballer you're never likely to see, although Shane O'Bree may take that challenge as some sort of personal affront. if his last name was Kinnear I'd get the joke. At the moment I'm not laughing Richard Hadley? Sh-t! - traded his draft pick for the pick for Ryan Lonie. Who? Plays at Williamstown. oh, him. yeah, real hard man, voted 4th hardest player in league. no, the lions weren't take the mickey were they? Daniel Bell. Yeah, he's promising. 6'3", quick, athletic. pity he was the pick given away for Woewodin. Woewoful makes Lonie look tough. Nick Dal Santo. Maybe next year, but what about in the 2001 draft? No. Pick 11 would be much better spent on Richard "accountable" Cole, the only man who appears to take the instruction "play him close" as a license to adopt some sort of Detroit Pistons style zone defence versus Shaq. I swear to christ I watch him sometimes and he's looking up at the sky while the ball is up for grabs daydreaming. Maybe he likes planes? A looser player you're unlikely to find. OK, I agree, we'll take Cole at 11 and let the saints get Dal Santo at 13. Noel thinks its for the best. Sav Rocca would be a presence in the square with Anthony out. All we'd have to do is get him to lead to the boundary, put him in no 23 and tell him to lead wide and let his man run off and no one would know the difference. What? We DELISTED him. Not even a Mark Kinnear in return? You sure? That can't be right. Who did we get as a replacement at the draft. SCOTT CUMMINGS? Must be a misprint. Must be. Matthew Pavlich would be awesome although he might battle when having to receive the footy from Rhyce Shaw instead of Paul Hasleby. Forgot. Traded pick 3 (Pavlich went 4) to the Tigers for Steve Mckee and pick 7 (Danny Roach). I think I know Mckee. Isn't he the guy that now holds up the big whiteboard at the quarter time huddle (no sh-t, check it out next time Pies on TV). As for Danny Roach, didn't he retire at age 20? Must have played some good footy before that though? 1 game! Really? How many touches? 1! What did he do with it? OUT ON THE FULL!!! Surely you jest. Oh well, why don't we go for what we do have. We could bring in David King, Matthew Lokan, or anyone with the surname Shaw. Seriously, is there an age limit on the father-son rule coz it's not too late to turn Jock McHale jnr into a pretty reasonable CHF. Sure, he's 60+ but he couldn't possibly look slow in the pies line-up. NOPE. Pies are done. Micky must DIE. All this happened on his watch. If you need me I'll be at crown watching Liverpool on the telly, downing pots, and telling anyone who'll listen that Leigh Walker could've been anything if he'd just had Ben Kinnear's knees.

Author:	darknavy [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:
haha thats so funny - couldn't happen to a nicer club - at least all the players that we let go or trade haven't gone ahead in leaps and bounds at other clubs. BTW they can have Col Kinnear if they want.

Author:	Rod Waddell [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:
Blue Bird wrote: No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting. Sure good ol Col made a big booby that night.............has anyone not made a mistake in their life. I reckon it's time Col comes back into the fold and takes up a possie on the board. The board has had no real change in personnel for 3 years and were right for the moment. That moment has now passed. Time for some youthful exhuberance and energy.

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Author:	TruBlueBrad [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:
BluesRockMyWorld wrote: TruBlueBrad wrote: Saints drafted Barry Hall, not Swans. Drafting/Trading isn't an exact science and never has been. Its fine to say these players were available, but chances are we wouldn't have drafted them anyway. Most of the players you mentioned as still being available were also passed on by 15 other clubs. How would you go being a Fremantle supporter and looking at some of their trades and the players they missed drafting. Try Collingwood who took Fraser over Pavlich and Haselby. (Stand to be corrected on Haselby) Every club will have their missed opportunities and stuff up's TBB Its true that clubs all have been guilty of missed opportunites come draft time and also that drafting is not an exact science. The point of bringing up these horror stories was to show that the Blues have clearly not been active in drafts in the past, and have simply topped up the list. The ole "Carlton never rebuild" mentality of the Jack era if you like. These examples prove that our list was always going to become mediocre because the previous administration did not adequately plan for the future. It also shows that there are more reasons than just "Black Friday" for where the list is at right now. Agree with that. Regarding 'Black Friday' I would also say that Nick Stevens cancels out one of the selections as he's a ready made player that fell into our lap. The thing was we tried to top up to win a flag. If Sexton kicks straight in 99 and Kouta doesn't do his knee in 2000 no one's complaining. We're not the first, won't be the last to top up trying to win a flag. Adelaide did it with Carey, didn't work, they've bounced back and used the Rookie List to great effect.

Author:	buzzaaaah [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:
Rod Waddell wrote: Blue Bird wrote: No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting. Sure good ol Col made a big booby that night.............has anyone not made a mistake in their life. I reckon it's time Col comes back into the fold and takes up a possie on the board. The board has had no real change in personnel for 3 years and were right for the moment. That moment has now passed. Time for some youthful exhuberance and energy. I agree. He was set up by Elliot to make a bitter attack on Larry A and The USC then Elliot and co decided to resign en masse. Wouldnt mind see him back involved at Carlton

Author:	GWS [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:
buzzaaaah wrote: I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize. No need to kill. The guy who invented the lobotomy got one. There's a push on at the moment to get it rescinded but they've got a snowflake's of that happening. Very popular procedure in its day.

Author:	GWS [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:
TruBlueBrad wrote: Agree with that. Regarding 'Black Friday' I would also say that Nick Stevens cancels out one of the selections as he's a ready made player that fell into our lap. Can't agree with this. This is like the assumption that we made up for Goddard and Wells with Simpson and Fisher. Simpson and Fisher may end up better than Goddard and Wells or they may not but we should have had "Simpson, Fisher, Goddard and Wells" rather than just two of them. If you want to see what a good drafting booty looks like take a peak at the Bullies drafts in 1999 and 2000: 1999 Robert Murphy Daniel Giansiracusa Mitchell Hahn Ryan Hargrave Lindsay Gilbee 2000 Jordan McMahon Shane Birss Daniel Cross Wade Skipper That's 9 players in two drafts. All are now regular senior players and most are only playing good consistent football now 5-6 years after they entered the system (with the exception of Murphy who was a first rounder and a precocious talent from the beginning). So are Fisher, Simpson and Stevens compensation for Goddard and Wells? We should have had all of them. (Patrick Wiggins was also selected in 1999 and is the only "miss" from that period)

Author:	Rod Waddell [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:
GWS wrote: TruBlueBrad wrote: Agree with that. Regarding 'Black Friday' I would also say that Nick Stevens cancels out one of the selections as he's a ready made player that fell into our lap. Can't agree with this. This is like the assumption that we made up for Goddard and Wells with Simpson and Fisher. Simpson and Fisher may end up better than Goddard and Wells or they may not but we should have had "Simpson, Fisher, Goddard and Wells" rather than just two of them. If you want to see what a good drafting booty looks like take a peak at the Bullies drafts in 1999 and 2000: 1999 Robert Murphy Daniel Giansiracusa Mitchell Hahn Ryan Hargrave Lindsay Gilbee 2000 Jordan McMahon Shane Birss Daniel Cross Wade Skipper That's 9 players in two drafts. All are now regular senior players and most are only playing good consistent football now 5-6 years after they entered the system (with the exception of Murphy who was a first rounder and a precocious talent from the beginning). So are Fisher, Simpson and Stevens compensation for Goddard and Wells? We should have had all of them. (Patrick Wiggins was also selected in 1999 and is the only "miss" from that period) Yes lets not get started on that Wiggins clan Interesting re those bulldog players. GWS who would you have listed say circa Rd 20 2004. Very few were setting the place alight and many may have been languishing in the seconds (cue Sedat). Amazing transformation once they secured a reasonable coach. Hey perhaps we should do that!......oops that's right we do already have a reasonable coach.