TalkingCarlton
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You dont know what ya got till ya aint got it anymore.
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Author:  Mickstar [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  You dont know what ya got till ya aint got it anymore.
Great game yesterday.Congrats Bloods.Great win.
Sydney 8.10....58 West Coast 7. 12....54
It was an armwrestle all day.Nail biting stuff.Not an inch given by either side all day.We were all on the edge of our seats until the final siren.
Hell ! 58 beats 54.Bloody low scoring game wasnt it.Roos and Worsfold would have given there left n_t to break the deadlock.
My point being ? Roos and Worsfold would have killed to have Whitnall and Fevola in there side.Key forwards are scarce as hen's teeth.
Roos had one and Worsfold had none.Game over !

The Carlton Football Club is very,very fortunate in that it has not one but two gifted key forwards.Even contemplating offloading either or both of these two is pure insanity in my book.Sure,they are problem children and are high maintenance.BAD LUCK ! There our boys and we are just going to have to deal with it the best we can.It aint a perfect world folks.Its not our talented players that are the problem with our side.Its that we have to many mediocre types coming through.A lot of you guys rave about Waite,Walker,Thornton etc. but they have a long way to go for mine.Sure,there coming along nicely,but they have plenty of work to do for mine.

Speaking of Barry Hall.Very,very good player and a fine focal point.But for mine,Lance is every bit as good.He actually plays a similar type of game.That is ,starts deep and pushes hard up the ground and thus creates space.Neither Hall or Whitnall take a heap of contested grabs.
OK Barry is more aggresive and intimidating than Lance.But i tell you folks,Lance is a superb CHF when on song.Reckon Denis needs to show more faith in Lance.Got get over that old school thinking.

And another point.........You eff off good players and they have a habit of biting you on the arse.
Barry Hall,Paul Williams,Darren Jolly,Nick Davis,Craig BoltonJason Ball.
What the hell were there previous match commitees thinking ?
Especially the Saints.Only a brain dead embecile would think they could gain something by trading on this goliath.

No folks.If you have a talent,you hold onto him no matter what.Build around em.

We would forever rue the day if we parted company with Lance and Brendan.

You dont know what youve got untill you havent got it any more.
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well put Mick. Really angling for POW this week, aren't you?! :wink:

I agree with your general sentiment, however how right that is is yet to be seen.

I'd love to see Lance prove you 100% right (and apart from anything, it would prove Synbad wrong, and I'd love that...)

If we can get a decent trade, we should consider a trade for either Lance or Fev, but not both. But while the footbll Dept is at it, why is Campo immune? Get rid of him, he's doing more damage with his attitude than Lance or Fev with their laziness.

Either way, let's see.
Author:  Blue Vain [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'd possibly keep Lance if Wallace, Roos or Eade were coaching us.
Under Pagan he's an overcapitalised underperforming flanker.
He's suited to a possession style game which we'll never play.

It will suit us and Red to move him on.
Author:  dannyboy [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
disagree 100% Mick I am afraid. For me what yesterday showed was talent is great but team unity is greater (though not by much. :lol: ). Hang on to fev and Lance on 1 condition - they give their all - otherwise forget it. yes you must get talent and a ruckman and a midfield oozing talent etc - and a great CHF will create more opportunities than a shite one etc BUT a team playing this game at 100% is a fearful thing.

Carlton is shit at the moment but for me, the over-riding factor is unity. Some blame Denis, I blame our so called senior players - who is right? Hindsight will tell us. For now I want to back Denis and that means sort out each and every player who wants to play for the team.

Does Fev - really, not the words but with actions?

Does Lance?

or Skinny?
or Campo?

Do I know the answer - no.

I just think the club must by now and if that answer is that they are unsure of any or all of these players then they should trade them and grow some fair dinkum team unity - something we bluebaggers once oozed and now only dream about.
Author:  BlueJean [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
yes dannyboy...Lance's fruits don't bear under Denis' game plan...If Fevola got his act together and put more effort on the field rather than in the media he would be a certainty in next years side...however in a shit team his weak points are too stronly highlighted and for that reason, I say trade him...There would be another club out there wanting Fev, surely?...

I firmly believe that until the old Carlton is well and truly gone we wont be a force...Kouta's offered us his best...so has Campo...Skinny wants to leave and Fev and Lance would be better suited elsewhere, whether they can get their act together elsewhere though is questionable...

Carlton has to firmly push up both Fev and Lance's value...If another club were to bite, I would be after a top 20 pick or a young gun from another club...

We must bring in fresh blood...we simply cannot rely on Fev and Lance to take us up the ladder...I mean there low points are as shit as their good ones...Bring in kids with character and spirit who really want to make it...
And NO!...we can't rely on building a side around Fev and Lance for F#$%'s sake!...

I think we lack strong leaders in all areas on the field...Ruck, midfield, forwardline and backline..So then what do we do???...

We start now in getting them...Stock up in the national draft and try and snag a gem in the PSD...It's not about who we've got now, it's about who we're gonna get!...
Author:  JohnM [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yesterday's result was built upon the back of Sydney's self-confessed 'No flower' recruiting philosophy.

Fev's a flower, because he's as petulant as a six year old and tries to get by on natural talent. Lance is a flower, because he hasn't got what it takes mentally to present himself in good enough shape to play AFL football. Campo's a flower, because after 11 seasons on very good money (plus a premiership) he should be thinking about what he can do for the club, not vice versa. Norman's a flower because he's not even remotely professional about his football. Lappin's a half-dickhead because holding out for 3 years at his age is nothing but pure self-interest.

I don't care if we get rid of all the flower, and I don't care how good these flower are 'on paper'. I just know that we'll be recruiting some excellent talent these next two years, and I don't want them influenced by flower.

I know Sydney had Barry Hall, but who played full forward for them yesterday? Centre Half Back? Full Back? A bunch of no-names, the lot of them. No-names who worked together to win a premiership.

A pretty good story. And more importantly, a pretty good lesson.
Author:  Wangers [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
We need to change to mindset of players and the culture. We need players to play for the coach and be united as a group.

Our problem are these;

We have players that expect the big $$$ but won't play to their full potential consistently - Whitnall, Campo, Lappin, Kouta

We have players that have been there for a few years that are being exposed to the 'old school' (see last point) - Houlihan, Fev

We have players who either have a bad attitude or and don't want to be there - Norman

Based on these points - These 7 players can cause more long term harm to this club, if they are still there in 2006. The longer the younger brigade are exposed to them the more danger each one of the younger players will turn to the dark side and inherit one of these unwanted attributes.

Put simply - the less of these players there are at Carlton in the next year or two the better for the others that want to get this club back to where it belongs.
Author:  Kouta [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You dont know what ya got till ya aint got it anymore.
Mickstar wrote:
Speaking of Barry Hall.Very,very good player and a fine focal point.But for mine,Lance is every bit as good.He actually plays a similar type of game.That is ,starts deep and pushes hard up the ground and thus creates space.Neither Hall or Whitnall take a heap of contested grabs.

Lance is nowhere near Hall as a CHF and Hall to my knowledge, has always presented himself for football in top shape without a spare tyre or two.

As for your point about Hall and Lance not taking contested marks, Barry Hall was only one mark behind Richardson with 52 contested marks this season.Whitnall took 23.

To those who say we'll suffer beltings without Lance and Brendan, one of our best wins was against the Hawks without Fevola and with a quiet Whitnall.

I'd trade them both to get players and a pick/s whilst they still have some value.I don't subscribe to the theory you'll get more in next year's draft for Fevola, since even Carlton wouldn't give up early picks in possibly the best draft since 2001.

Would we? :(
Author:  Stefchook [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: You dont know what ya got till ya aint got it anymore.
Mickstar wrote:
He actually plays a similar type of game.That is, starts deep and pushes hard up the ground and thus creates space. Neither Hall or Whitnall take a heap of contested grabs.


I agree that neither take a lot of contested marks. It's true of most of the other power forwards in the competition as well, like Tredrea and Pavlich. The difference between these guys and Whitnall, is that they actually have the pace and athleticism to actually get into space to take uncontested marks. Unfortunately Whitnall doesn't, which is why he only takes uncontested marks when he's playing as a loose man in defence.

Trade him while we can. We don't have the kind of gameplan that is ever going to suit him. And we don't have sufficient skill level to play a kind of gameplan that would suit him. And even if we had both, I'd still trade him, because as good a player as Whits has been (and still is), he's not all that hard to lock down (because of his lack of size and athleticism). Even in his glory years when Carlton was flying, he didn't do a lot in finals. Whereas at least the real power forwards of the competition can actually take some contested grabs.
Author:  mikey_m [ Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Barry Hall is the leading contested marking player in the competition over the last 2 years.

Lance is not remotely in that class.
Author:  Dodo27 [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Has Fevola and Lance actually ever played together in the forward line at any stage of this season?

the only game i remember is Round 2 when these two put on a show in the last Quarter and kicked 5 goals between them to win the game....

other than that, its always been lance in Defence, or fevola injured or suspended, or both playing together for 5 or min 10 a game....

We all saw how devestating both can be in the Wizard Cup, and if u have a decent midfield who can deliver some balls under pressure, at the same time, we know how bad our defence is, So why not try to recruit some decent Defenders whilst keeping both fev and lance for one more year, and playing them Forward and see what they can do??

i am pretty sure they can turn it around....
Author:  Synbad [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:23 am ]
Post subject: 
If the game of footy was about sticking your fat arse into someone so as you can get yourself a mini break on your opponent Lance would be a handy player.
Unfortunately for Lance, the game of football is about athleticism and he just cant cut it.
He can use his brains to find space .......... but only when the opposition dont really care about him.

If they do and the Venus fly trap shuts tight on him.. were buggerd!!!.. cos we kept him and didnt trade him....

He wont ever get any better... he wont get faster, he wont jump higher.. he wont grow taller or get any stronger... he wont even get any smarter.
His days are numbered!!!!

See ya Lance.... 400k????? pftttttttttttttt!!!

Somewhere else.. !!!

Youve already bled this club dry....

Bye bye....!!!
Author:  Kouta [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:02 am ]
Post subject: 
You can make an equally valid case for trading Fevola

- doesn't chase when he possesses the pace to run the opposition down
- only taken 27 contested marks in 19 games, nearly half Richardson's total.Even Ashley Hansen has taken 22 contested marks in 19 games.
- Has issues and wouldn't get past Sydney's no flower policy
- looks disinterested and allegedly whinges when he's not getting champagne midfield delivery on a cordial budget.
- Has been signed up on big money purely based on potential not on peformance, which isn't a patch on Bradshaw's record.Partly because the club feared losing him for nought, subsequently he is now harder to trade because of this contract. :evil:
- Embarasses the club by insulting the greatest player who ever wore Navy Blue in public.

Good news that they're prepared to trade Fevola if they get a golden deal to good to refuse.

Lance and Brendan, it's time to go!
Author:  blueslander [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:51 am ]
Post subject: 
It appears that games these days are all won and lost in the midfield. No rocket science there I admit, but unti we get a crack group of mid-fielders it will not matter how great our forward line is, sure they may keep us competitive, but we need midfielders and need them now. We are blown off the park week in and week out because of our lack of talent. Hard running types that can go forward when needed.

It is never going to matter how great our forwrds are until we fix that.

If we can trade good forwards to a team with a great midfield then I would be happy with that.

I would like to keep the forwards we have, but man can you justify it?
Author:  Synbad [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:27 am ]
Post subject: 
JuzzCarlton wrote:
You can make an equally valid case for trading Fevola

- doesn't chase when he possesses the pace to run the opposition down
- only taken 27 contested marks in 19 games, nearly half Richardson's total.Even Ashley Hansen has taken 22 contested marks in 19 games.
- Has issues and wouldn't get past Sydney's no flower policy
- looks disinterested and allegedly whinges when he's not getting champagne midfield delivery on a cordial budget.
- Has been signed up on big money purely based on potential not on peformance, which isn't a patch on Bradshaw's record.Partly because the club feared losing him for nought, subsequently he is now harder to trade because of this contract. :evil:
- Embarasses the club by insulting the greatest player who ever wore Navy Blue in public.

Good news that they're prepared to trade Fevola if they get a golden deal to good to refuse.

Lance and Brendan, it's time to go!


I think the difference ith Fevola is he is actually effective.
He has never taken the as much money from the club that he could have.He isnt harder to trade at all... where do you get that???.... dumb statement.
There was more embarsssing of the club by others that night that was not reprted because it wasnt Fev.
Has marketing appeal.
Stevens would get traded if it landed a player like Jonathon Brown or Judd too....
Author:  The Vet [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 
What stands out for me about the Swans victory was they were "brothers" playing for each other all day.

Now wouldn't that be nice - the downhillskier stopping being a petulant schoolboy, Houlihan putting his body on the line, Fevola losing his self interested focus and getting on with the TEAM!!

I don't really mind who plays for the Blues, but THEY MUST HONOUR THE JUMPER.

I loved all the references to the "Bloods" that was history calling them forward.

How about a bit of @#$%&! respect for thos magnificent teams that carried us to glory. A Champion tema will always beat a team of champions. We've got a lot to learn from these guys, let's hope the players do it quick.
Author:  Stefchook [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:59 am ]
Post subject: 
JuzzCarlton wrote:
- Has been signed up on big money purely based on potential not on peformance


That's pretty standard policy these days. Young stars get the really big contracts based on their potential output. But when they get older, their 'trade value' is diminished, and so are their contracts. Which is why Carlton's contract situation in recent years has been so ridiculous.
Author:  blu944 [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:44 am ]
Post subject: 
can people stop the 'team of champions vs champion team' crud. The swans have plenty of stars playing for them. They are a well coached team of great players and have a forward line that could only be rivaled by stkilda
Author:  Kaptain Kouta [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:07 am ]
Post subject: 
blu944 wrote:
can people stop the 'team of champions vs champion team' crud. The swans have plenty of stars playing for them. They are a well coached team of great players and have a forward line that could only be rivaled by stkilda


No. They are a well coached team of good players, but they really only have a couple of "great" ones.
Author:  buzzaaaah [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Hall >>>>>> Whitnall
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