At times i write down player / Pagan quotes for use in articles and I found this one in the pile last night:

'If you've got a soft attitude, you don't last too long with Denis"
Martin Pike announcing retirement, the Age, 14 August 2005

Thinking of Carlton over the past 3 years, and our high level of turnover (particularly 2003), who could it be said that this quote may apply to? The high profile departures are Allan, Beaumont, Manton, Camporeale, Murphy, plus 20-30 lesser known players. Allan needed a change of scenery, Manton was at the end and Beaumont / Camporeale - well, it looks like a range of factors.

Does anyone think these players had a soft attitude?

Molsey I often read your post because your often the voice of reason on this site, But this one is total crap. These players didn't have a soft attitude otherwise they wouldn't have played the number of games and lasted as long as they did, these guys had a different attitude on how to play the game which Pagan couldn't deal with or work with so they have since departed. If anyone has the soft attitude it is Pagan for not being able to deal with a group of his players.

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Sydney, with respect, your post is the crap one. To say that the coach has to conform his attitude to the players rather than vice versa is ridiculous. The man won two premierships at a Club that was held together by morale only. Who do you think generated the spirit within that group? To say that Pagan has to take his lead from blokes like Allan, Beaumont or Camporeale is plain stupid. IMO, each was remunerated well in excess of their contribution to the Club and none saw it incumbent on them to dig in and help right the ship. Molsey's post raises the legitimate question as to whether Pagan is now starting to surround himself with the type of players that have the right kind of spirit. Did you notice that as much was said about our new recruits' character as much as their football ability!

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I thought Synbad was the voice of reason on TC?

Sydney, it's just a question. Martin Pike, 4 time premiership player, said this about Dennis. Carlton has lost and traded some players who either wanted to move on for a fresh start, $, or couldn't work with Pagan.

And yes fjanyc has already picked where I thought the discussion would end up given the recruiters are saying we've picked up 'coachable' players.

Campo & soft mentioned in the same article?

I think Molseys spot on here... the had all become soft towards the end.

No we have picked up young kids who dont know any better the guys you singled out had all played well over 100 games of AFL and some 200 . the AFL is a tough uncomprimising competition you dont get that many games with a soft attitude. The only thing these guys had is a different attitude on how to play the game which Pagan couldn't deal with . The new recruits know no better so they wont disagree with Pagan if this makes them more coachable to Pagan then so be it, but there are more than one way to skin a cat and recent years have shown the Pagans way is not the best way as no other side with any sort of success adopts his game plan.

Martin Pike also said in a radio interview not so long ago that Pagan didn't rate in the top coaches he had played under too.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Hahahaha the classic 'with respect'. I love it.

I don't know if soft attitude is the right word with those players. I believe that to make it at AFL level over an extended period of time you won't survive if you have a totally soft attitude.

I reckon comfortable is a better word.

I think these players probably just got very comfortable with where they are and didn't like the introduction of a coach who wanted more.

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In my humble opinion, it's a bit of both.
The players wouldn't conform to Pagan's ways and Pagan wouldn't work with them in the end.
In the end it was to the detriment of the Carlton Football Club.

Given Pagan gave Pike the heave ho, where does that place Pike in the whole scheme of things? Did he have a soft attitude and that's why he was given the flick?

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

When i think of Campo.. the very first word that pops into my head is 'tough'.(both physically and mentally)
Cross my heart...

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Personally; slightly off subject; I was pleased that John Murphy obviously had no misgivings about his son going to Carlton to be coached by Denis Pagan.

If I had played about 250 games over 13 years at the highest level; I reckon I'd have a fair idea of who I'd like coaching my son....or not.

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In fact if it wernt for Denis he would probably be playing for the Lions.. It Dont take too much notice of JUST the stay home factor.

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Given that the quote is from Pike himself, then maybe he realised that he did have a soft attitude at the time.

People do change verbs.

I'm not doubting Matthews toughened him up...though if you've ever met Martin, I think you'd agree there isn't much left there to toughen up.

verbs, Pagan didnt let him go because he wasnt tough enough.. he let him go because he was a plonk.
All molesy said is that on his retirement , he ( Pike) said that if youre not tough, you wont last under Pagan.
that has nothing to do with him leaving because he would wake up with his dinner from the night before plastered over his shirt.

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...soft, lazy, poor work ethic....call it what you like. DP has weeded out players he thinks dont share his philosphy on the game and its fair enough..he is the coach...Brendon Fevola for example needs to change his attitude or he will be next...maybe soft is the wrong word....poor attitude is probably better...

re: Martin Pike...Pike just matured and realised footy was his meal ticket.

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
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- Conor Gillen

But Molsey was asking if players being ditched by Pagan correlates with Pike's comment. Possibly not then?

yeah but hair splitter?
Why not get into the spirit of what he is asking???
You know what he meant..

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