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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:00 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Power and the Lions have said it's not the money.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:02 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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GWS wrote:
Power and the Lions have said it's not the money.


All that Power and the Lions have said are there's been complications. Funny how "complications" rarely arise when you're a genuine premiership threat.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Good topic this one

I think that in general posters on this site love the club and want it to be where it belongs - at the top! (I know I do :))Clearly the performance of the team has been sub standard for the last few seasons, and the natural response will be to bag certain players. I have no problem with criticism as long as it is justified and warranted. However, when emotions come into play, it can be hard to be objective.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:07 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Bring back James Cook!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:13 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Blue Bird wrote:
Bring back James Cook!


Yes, he would have made a great captain.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:14 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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GWS wrote:

When did Peter Dean, Bruce Doull, Andrew McKay, Michael Sexton, Ange Christou and any number of others who spent their careers putting the club first hold the club to ransom and allow their agents to manipulate the media to get themselves an extra few bucks whilst dragging the club through the mud?



IMO a couple more factors need to be considered. All the players that you mentioned above play a certain style of game. They are all hard, tough and courageous players. (Which of course you want).

The lighter framed (outside) players are more likely to be considered "soft" and are more likely to be targeted as Whipping boys.

Houla is a fine example. Not matter what he does on the football field; he has the "soft tag" attached to everything. To me it’s more about perception. Houla looks laconic at times. He is not well built like a Doull, Dean, etc and he doesn’t really fit the ideal description of a footballer for some. Most people however who watch any amount of football realise that you need ball carriers just as much as you the inside players and Houla's disposal by foot is a required attribute.

The second point (which The Chief pointed out) is success. Take Wayne Campbell. On big dollars and with the Tigers on the bottom of the ladder copped it from all quarters. An overpaid and underperforming whipping boy! This season however a little success and they want him to stay on for another season? Why? A little bit of success and people are a lot more forgiving.

Lastly we (Carlton Supporter) don’t take failure or lack of success very well. We are not very good losers and so don’t take kindly to players under performing. We are not used to it.

Of course you’re right GWS. If high priced players under perform then you and everyone else is entitled to have a crack. Don’t have a problem with that.

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Last edited by Shakin77 on Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:21 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Supporters make the mistake of assuming that the loyalty they themselves have for their club is something that the players should feel as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:35 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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George Harris wrote:
Blue Bird wrote:
Bring back James Cook!


Yes, he would have made a great captain.


[groan]

...here it comes...

















He always showed a lot of endeavour.


[/groan]

:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:40 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Shakin77 wrote:
Lastly we (Carlton Supporter) don’t take failure or lack of success very well. We are not very good losers and so don’t take kindly to players under performing. We are not used to it.


How true.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:44 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Shakin77 wrote:
GWS wrote:

When did Peter Dean, Bruce Doull, Andrew McKay, Michael Sexton, Ange Christou and any number of others who spent their careers putting the club first hold the club to ransom and allow their agents to manipulate the media to get themselves an extra few bucks whilst dragging the club through the mud?



IMO a couple more factors need to be considered. All the players that you mentioned above play a certain style of game. They are all hard, tough and courageous players. (Which of course you want).

The lighter framed (outside) players are more likely to be considered "soft" and are more likely to be targeted as Whipping boys.

Houla is a fine example. Not matter what he does on the football field; he has the "soft tag" attached to everything. To me it’s more about perception. Houla looks laconic at times. He is not well built like a Doull, Dean, etc and he doesn’t really fit the ideal description of a footballer for some. Most people however who watch any amount of football realise that you need ball carriers just as much as you the inside players and Houla's disposal by foot is a required attribute.

The second point (which The Chief pointed out) is success. Take Wayne Campbell. On big dollars and with the Tigers on the bottom of the ladder copped it from all quarters. An overpaid and underperforming whipping boy! This season however a little success and they want him to stay on for another season? Why? A little bit of success and people are a lot more forgiving.

Lastly we (Carlton Supporter) don’t take failure or lack of success very well. We are not very good losers and so don’t take kindly to players under performing. We are not used to it.

Of course you’re right GWS. If high priced players under perform then you and everyone else is entitled to have a crack. Don’t have a problem with that.


All good points Shakin though Houla's not a whipping boy of mine as far as his football goes. I still see him as a developing young player with a lot to learn. With each year it looks less likely that he'll make it but he's still got oodles of talent and I hope he pulls his finger out if he stays at the club long term.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:46 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:19 pm
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Problem GSW is Houlihan continues to shirk the hard stuff. He is a nancy boy through and through and you should realise this by now. All Carlton supporters should. He will never get any harder. Sad but very true. I'd trade him no questions asked. Could you see him playing for Sydney on the weekend? I think not.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:49 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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GWS wrote:
Fair call if true Verbs although I'd say over the course of Aker's career he's still earnt a darn sight less than he would have if he'd left - now how about reponding to the list of former Carlton players and how they've dealt with these issues?

Or Aker might hold the club to ransom and go and play Rugby Union if they recruited Carey.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:20 pm 
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Trevor Keogh
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JuzzCarlton wrote:
GWS wrote:
Fair call if true Verbs although I'd say over the course of Aker's career he's still earnt a darn sight less than he would have if he'd left - now how about reponding to the list of former Carlton players and how they've dealt with these issues?

Or Aker might hold the club to ransom and go and play Rugby Union if they recruited Carey.


I remember Aker saying that he deliberately leaked that he had spoken to Sydney to drive his price up a few years ago as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:24 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:14 pm
Posts: 217
It's no different to real life. If you put your hand out for the big bucks, you are expected to perform accordingly.

Just because they are wearing a Carlton jumper doesn't mean they are an exception to this rule.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:35 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Speakers wrote:
Problem GSW is Houlihan continues to shirk the hard stuff. He is a nancy boy through and through and you should realise this by now. All Carlton supporters should. He will never get any harder. Sad but very true. I'd trade him no questions asked. Could you see him playing for Sydney on the weekend? I think not.


Couldn't agree more Speakers and I'm happy for him to be traded if the right deal's there but he was definitely worth persisting with for a good few years to see if he could turn it around.

There aren't too many guys running around in the AFL with his skill level. Unfortunately he still seems to be struggling with that aspect of the game and I doubt he'll play out his career at Carlton.

He's been playing senior football for six years now and it doesn't appear to be improving. If he's on the list next year (which I expect he will be considering his contract) then he's on his last chance.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:58 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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What I don't get is, after his 31 posession game in the middle in Round 22 2003, he's spent little (if any) time in the middle since. I thought he showed enough in that game to indicate he'd play a significant role in our middle, but he seems to have fallen out of favour there.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:18 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am
Posts: 4827
Dont want to turn this into a Houlihan bashing thread but he isnt really important enough to be talking about...we wont be building team around him, playing him in the midfield or relying on him for anything more than some pretty finishing at best....he wont be changing his style of play and bar coming down with a bad case of the mumps he wont be growing bigger nads which are neccessary to perform the duties of a influential player and provide leadership....lets leave Ryan alone and concentrate on getting the Waites, Thorntons, Walkers, Benticks up to the next level and finding some assistance for Marc Murphy and maybe getting our own version of Barry Hall..

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:36 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Close call but I'd say Callum Chambers is mine simply because he couldn't catch a cold if he tried.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:46 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Callum Chambers is no good but at least he gives his best unlike some of the other overvalued sloths. I hope they at least try and trade Houlisoft.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:15 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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camelboy wrote:
George Harris wrote:
Blue Bird wrote:
Bring back James Cook!


Yes, he would have made a great captain.


[groan]

...here it comes...

He always showed a lot of endeavour.

[/groan]

:mrgreen:


But Cookie crumbled under pressure.

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