so when we recycled and won some games everyone was pissed off, everyone didn't want new sponsors, didn't want a bit of culture, weren't pleased that the club had a go at sticking it up the AFL, didnn't think we needed some big bodies etc.


Hindsight is useful only if we find ourselves ever in the same position again!

This club is in the shit but at least it tried to give us wins and to rebuild the spirit - I'll take that over hawthorns lay down and simper and whine while shedding players for picks like Curly running loops on the floor while screaming 'whoop whoop whoop!'

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I think the problem with recycled player is that they can be good, quality contributers, but only if you use them in small numbers.

In 2004 about a 1/3 of our list was made of of recyled players. We miht have won a bunch of games but that was beasue they were playing for their future. There was minimal talent involved in those games, it was mostly luck and grunt. Maybe 3/4 of them are gone now. Perhaps the only one with any future that I see is Teague, the rest have no future(McGrath has hardness but he panics whenever he gets the ball). Teague will play a bit better when he gets some quality defenders around him.

This year we will have no recycled players (I dont consider Saddo one as the Swans most likely would have kept him). I doubt we will get one in the ND as we have a limited amount of picks.

One or two a year wont hurt but the chances of us getting one with any real talent is very difficult becasue of the simple problem that coaches arent that stupid. If you have a good player you dont get rid of them. The possible exceptions are Williams and Laidely, who are tools.

You can add Saddington to the list in 2 years time when he also is delisted.

At the time, given the circumstances of our draft penalites, we traded well. The only criticism is that I feel we went a little too far down that track. We did win half our games in 2004, and who amongst us wasn't impressed by the outstanding performance in the Wizard Cup. I know it was pre-season but they did look quite brilliant. Given the history of Wizzer finalists finishing top 5, many of us were probalby thinking finals after that game. Even the bookies had us $14 for that flag at that time. Sadly Pagan went and lost the players again, for the second time in 3 years, explaining alot of the shockers that came about this year. To me, that's where most ol the blame should lie.

Not all our recycled players were going to work out, but we won on most of our trades. and I think a couple, Johnson and Morell were very unlucky. Played great in the VFL but only had to play one bad game, after a few good games in a row on occasions, at senior level to get chopped. Johnson could get the ball in and under and surely Morell could have filled some holes at either end of that ground. And unlike others, they always had a go. It wasn't as if we were going that well that we could drop them that quick. Then again, Pagan has his favourites and scapegoats.

I'd like to see the lists of other top sides thet last few years just to see what positions their players were taken. Be interesting reading. alot of St.Kilda's were taken early but on face value not so many of the Swans were. Schneider and Buchanan were 50's/60's picks. Like to see some of Brisbane's and Port's sides of recent times and see what position alot of their players were taken.

It's a good thing we didn't use the collingwood formula and go FS on Cameron Hunter. From memory we picked Simpson(?) instead - or did we trade our 3rd rounder for Scotland, either way we're much better off.

The percentage of AFL players who make it after being drafted at 60 or over is very low. We probably have one of the better records at getting some success in that region, Houlihan (73) and Fisher (70s) immediately spring to mind. If we had given away a lot for these retread guys ... fine, criticise the method. But as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, the picks we exchanged turned out useless, as did the players we gave up.

Maybe the Black Friday penalties are the real reason our list is so poor and we were forced to go down this path. The more I look at it, I'm not sure what other options the coaching staff had at the time.

PS What's a joke is when people start saying we should have played kids for the last 3 years, finished last and gathered up the likes of Cooney and Deledio. The last 4 years have been hard enough on all our supporters yet we have people advocating we should have played worse. This view that playing well in 2004 'cost us' is bloody ridiculous. Yeah, West Coast must really be kicking themselves they're missing out on quality draft picks.

_________________
In WADA we trust

Well said and summarised Dukes. With you all the way.

I would open a giant can of reality, and let Pagan look inside.

Then I'd say "look Denis, we have a shit list and playing Brett Johnson instead of Bentick achieves nothing. Whats better, winning 10 games for 10 years in a row, or 4 for one year, 8 the next, and 14 the one after, with young players on an upward curve?"

Pagan screwed up in 2003, big time, and he'd better not do it again or I'd sack him and bring in someone young who's not too scared to take a hit, and is young and ambitious enough to get up when he does.

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me

That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard .

Thank god we will never know the destruction that would've been caused to the club if your policies of blooding half a team of 18yo into the toughest comp in the land (nay,world) would be.

Go back to your anagrams of Campo, THE TYRANT.... or should I say Tatty Hern

http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=234155

Unofficial response from Mike & Dan

Bugger these joker journos

Great stuff M&D

_________________
|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

That is beautiful

_________________
Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

If you like the article, please let the Club know. The sooner we all get free reign to argue againstthese morons the better!

Thanks Jarusa and Deano.

Love

Michael

Will do ... great stuff!

_________________
In WADA we trust

M&D great article. As for some of the others bagging the Club and Pagan in particular, there is a lot of rewriting history and ignoring facts. Any meaningful comparison has to compare apples with apples. You can't expect someone with a nickel in his pocket to bring back a mercedes benz.

Yes, it is true to say that Nick Stevens fell into our lap, but didn't the Club play the situation perfectly so that it didn't part with pick 2 which it ultimately used on Walker. The previous administration would have traded that pick upon the ringing of the bell at Optus Oval on the Monday morning of trade week.

We gave up nothing -- and I mean nothing -- to get the retreds everyone is looking to skin. Would you rather we kept Allan, Murphy, Beaumont, McKernan because that is the true comparison. You can't play 22 guys that are just out of the under 18 competition and expect them to have any longevity.

Pagan has made some mistakes but IMHO he has been the only thing stopping the place from imploding.

Pagan has made some mistakes but IMHO he has been the only thing stopping the place from imploding.[/quote]

Pagan's been the whole problem. He can coach but he lost the players twice in 3 years with dreadful man-management skills. Alot of player's can't stand him. That's why we're in the shit, the player's won't work for him and aren't fair dinkum in having a real crack. He's man-management skills are very old fashioned and often is very stubborn in his gameplan. Must change his attitude in those regards or must go!!

Jim,

Can you tell me which players he has lost? At some stage they will come out of contract or will come out of contract and they would leave.
Which players has Denis lost that will come back to haunt the club?

Been watching the footy the last 3 years? Players not havng any sort of a go whatsoever. Yep, that's someone who really has the players on-side!! Know someone who's close to a player, and take my word for it, the players can't stand him.

Some of the kids seem to be thriving on him? What's the go there? Livo, Waite and Walker must be ok with him because they signed on for another contract, they could easily have said "I'm outta here".

I think they're senior players you're talking about jim. And if you've looked at the senior players, it's them that have been disappointing.

_________________
"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky