Thansk BV. My thoughts exactly

It’s incredibly hard for us on the outside. All we see, and can judge, is on field performance.

We have no idea about all the inner workings and machinations.

I can only hope that GW has a full grasp on why everything has collapsed so horrifically and will act accordingly.

My personal view remains the same. There is absolutely no excuse to be where we are at this stage of the build and the Voss tenure.

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We are on our way back...

I think you should read Blue Vain's post again, he answered all your questions very clearly.

Don't necessarily disagree with you, but the original topic you responded to was about sacking Voss or not, and your answer was to talk about the board.

Yes
Essentially it’s the board
If Voss goes at the end of this year
He is the 7 th coach in a row to have his contract terminated before it expires
In 23 years
Doesn’t that tell you something

OK, I thought you were agreeing that getting rid of Voss wasn't the solution, thanks for confirming.

If we’re making excuses for coaches based on the composition of a list Brendon Bolton is very hard done by.

I'll give you the red hot tip.
The year is done.

And incase you haven't really "watched" us play this year, in the off season we changed our game style to what has been evolving AFL wide and what has become quite apparent to those paying attention is we don't have the players to be able to play it for 4 quarters. We have seen glimpses and most of us have loved it, but the players continually let themselves, the club and the supporters down.

You can't just change game styles during the season, you can evolve it but when the evolution required is more of what you can't produce at the start of the season, well, you get what we have now.
Multi positional changes, tempo changes, directional changes, etc............ have all been done, no stone has been left unturned IMO.
The game has passed our list composition and is made more obvious with injuries, we are 1 dimensional due to talent.

As for 4 years.
Year 1 Voss assessed players.
Year 2 Voss made changes to list in areas of deficiency for the game style at the time (some worked, some didn't).
Year 3 We were crippled by injuries and at years end reduced those players but instead of adding more senior talent, we added kids in a "super draft".
Year 4 The game has evolved even more since 2023 and we have been unable to change the list profile quick enough to accommodate these changes and we are still injury prone.

The mistake I believe that has been made is on capped rotations, we went for more endurance players at the time at the cost of speed and skill.
How much Voss had a say in that, I don't know.
But wanting Houston suggests he could see what we are missing and it wasn't all his decision.
IMO I think he has overachieved with the list we have and given the fact he is a micro changer and likes to adjust suggests this is true given our results.

The only way forward IMO is to keep Voss, change some of his assistants, add more talent with speed, IQ and skill and aim for another push in 2-3 years.
We have to build on what we have done, otherwise the last 10 years have been a total waste.
Imploding will only set us back 5 years and sacking coaches is not a good look, backing them in is.

This was never going to be a premiership year for us, we got rid of too much experience (injured or not) and didn't add any depth to cover injuries.
The kids we drafted (including Jagga) would at minimum need 2+ years to be in that conversation.
Our ladder position today is a direct reflection of our trade period last year.

Have a look at our list composition and tell me what game style you would like.[/quote]
So Voss has no say in the make up of the list?

Has little say on game day moves and strategies?

Does he have any say on the game plan at all?

Sounds like he's only there to be nice to the media...


I like the bloke... I hope we can make it work... but...![/quote]

No. The question was, what game style would you like to play with the list composition we have. Simplistic stuff like just "implement the game style you want and start playing it", how do you think that will really work out?

Sure, let's play an uncontested game style. We're the worst kicking side in the AFL by a significant margin. But let's kick it around and keep it off the opposition. How is that going to work for us? FMD.
Yes Voss has plenty of say on game style and we're playing exactly the game style our list composition permits. We currently have a midfield core of Cripps, Cerra, Hewitt. Any outside midfield run of Walsh, Jagga, Cottrell or Elijah Hollands isn't there. Why do you think we're running Williams, Motlop, Moir etc through the middle?
To give us outside run. Uncontested options. But how many would be good enough to do that in another team?

Any defensive half skill is on the sidelines or just out of form in Saad, Newman, Boyd. Voss knew half back run and ball use is the current game. That's why he wanted Houston but was overruled. So we blame Voss for not having an alternative game style but we don't give him the players to play one.

But no, let's just do it anyway. Just play the game style you want! Who would you like as our half back distributors? We've tried Hollands, Cerra, McGovern, Wilson, Docherty, Williams, Carroll. Who would you like next? Acres? Cripps? Hewett? Fogarty?

This is the game style that got us into a preliminary final in 2023 and had us sitting second on the ladder at this time last year. Contested football and scoring from stoppage isn't outdated football. The top top 7 teams for scoring from stoppage are Bulldogs, Geelong, GC, Adelaide, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Brisbane. They also happen to be the top 7 teams on the ladder.
Top 6 for scoring from centre bounce are Hawthorn, Gold Coast, Bulldogs, Geelong, Collingwood, Adelaide. Look where they sit.
When we've been over run by teams this year, it's been drop in in contested footy and clearance that has beaten us. Look at the Collingwood game. 1 quarter they decimated us at contested footy and that was the game. Our strength was taken off us and was used to bash us.

Any available talent currently available is suited to bludgeon, bash football. Who is putting their hands up in the VFL that can change that?
Campo's? How's their kicking going? Evans? Tried him. Binns, how did that work out? Are they going to turn us into a team that can kick the ball well?

The stats tell us this current team can't finesses and kick the ball. Anyone who can offer run or kick the ball is either sidelined (Jagga, Walsh, Elijah, Cottrell, Newman or they're filling holes elsewhere.

Yes, an issue is connecting contested ball to the outside and then connecting inside 50. We don't have the available players to do it. You can't say the coaches aren't trying, They're turning the team upside down. We've probably played 8 different wingers this year. 15-18 different defenders, 30 different forwards.
But you can't turn shit into chocolate cake and you can't just "tell" players to play a different style of game and expect them to excel at it. If you can't kick the ball, telling you to kick it better doesn't work.

We have the foundations of a good team. We have the players who can get first touch at the stoppage but we don't have the outside connection. Jagga, Walsh and hopefully a quality trade this year will give that. As will Walker in 2 years.
Nic Newman is 32 but FMD, Sidebottom is 34 and still playing good footy. The current game looks after older players who can use the footy. HOF is a beautiful kick, as is Harry Dean. Another year HOF and Wilson and Cowan will make a lot of difference.

Get Harry back into the forward line, hopefully Skull comes along and draft a quality small forward and we're not far off.
I understand the frustration but blowing the joint up doesn't work. For too long we've made decisions to make it look like we're doing something. Bringing in Pagan, bringing in Malthouse. Buying time and quietening the noise. That's all we've done.
Hopefully Cook and Wright don't fall into the same category.

IMHO, Voss is playing exactly the game style our list offers. Fill in the blanks. This team can still contend IMHO. Charlie, Harry, Jack, Weiters. A great spine has still got 5 years of good footy in it. I've watched Jagga from early years. He's a gun.
Blowing it all up and starting again to appease the loudest voices is what we've done for 25 years. It hasn't worked. Back in the right people to make the right decisions and show some courage for a change.[/quote]

So we should just piss the rest of the year away and keep doing what we know doesn’t work?

If the game style is getting beaten constantly then change it. Other sides seem to be able to change things, but not Carlton.

He’s had 4 years, he didn’t know that we’d have the personal issues we’d have, yet he rolled out the same game style. Maybe he thinks this is the way to win?[/quote]
I'll give you the red hot tip.
The year is done.

And incase you haven't really "watched" us play this year, in the off season we changed our game style to what has been evolving AFL wide and what has become quite apparent to those paying attention is we don't have the players to be able to play it for 4 quarters. We have seen glimpses and most of us have loved it, but the players continually let themselves, the club and the supporters down.

You can't just change game styles during the season, you can evolve it but when the evolution required is more of what you can't produce at the start of the season, well, you get what we have now.
Multi positional changes, tempo changes, directional changes, etc............ have all been done, no stone has been left unturned IMO.
The game has passed our list composition and is made more obvious with injuries, we are 1 dimensional due to talent.

As for 4 years.
Year 1 Voss assessed players.
Year 2 Voss made changes to list in areas of deficiency for the game style at the time (some worked, some didn't).
Year 3 We were crippled by injuries and at years end reduced those players but instead of adding more senior talent, we added kids in a "super draft".
Year 4 The game has evolved even more since 2023 and we have been unable to change the list profile quick enough to accommodate these changes and we are still injury prone.

The mistake I believe that has been made is on capped rotations, we went for more endurance players at the time at the cost of speed and skill.
How much Voss had a say in that, I don't know.
But wanting Houston suggests he could see what we are missing and it wasn't all his decision.
IMO I think he has overachieved with the list we have and given the fact he is a micro changer and likes to adjust suggests this is true given our results.

The only way forward IMO is to keep Voss, change some of his assistants, add more talent with speed, IQ and skill and aim for another push in 2-3 years.
We have to build on what we have done, otherwise the last 10 years have been a total waste.
Imploding will only set us back 5 years and sacking coaches is not a good look, backing them in is.

This was never going to be a premiership year for us, we got rid of too much experience (injured or not) and didn't add any depth to cover injuries.
The kids we drafted (including Jagga) would at minimum need 2+ years to be in that conversation.
Our ladder position today is a direct reflection of our trade period last year.[/quote]

You won’t convince me he can coach, I won’t convince you he should be sacked.

I’ve said before I appreciate the effort and detail you go into, but the only thing that will convince me is results, and I don’t think he’ll achieve them. I think as HC he’s accountable for the results, you don’t. Again, difference of opinions.

First off, I assume you are blaming all those missed shots on goal last night as a coaching issue?

As per your position on results:
Chris Scott has been Geelong coach for 14 years.
1st year 2011 stumbled into a premiership.
2015 they finished 10th with premiership players.
2022 won a premiership.
2023 they finished 12th with premiership players.

By your metric of results, Scott should've been sacked twice in his tenure so far.

Meanwhile at Carlton
2022 9th
2023 5th
2024 8th
2025 12th

I'm not sure what you've seen, but to me it looks like we overachieved with our list in 2023 and have not recovered from injuries since 2024 mid season.
The list performed well for the back half of '23 and the start of '24 and has failed to deliver since, mainly to do with injuries but also the evolution of the game and drafting strategies.
The fact that he did well in those 2 halves says Voss can coach, the fact that it is dropping off like it has says we have bigger problems than the coach.
I agree that the HC is responsible for results, but most professional organisations take other factors into account, like injuries and games experience in their losses.
I guess I don't see our situation as black and white as you do.

I agree to disagree.

And don't forget Hardwick began coaching Richmond in 2010 and one their first premiership in 2017 with a game plan he did not create but resulted as of necessity due to injury!
We do not need big changes just tweaks everywhere!

The issue is some guys have it, some don't, Longmuir at Freo, The Dud Scott brother at Essendon*, Ken Hinkley at Port, whether luck or continuous reassessment some coaches will never get you there.
Voss doesn't have the tactical ability, and our contest stoppages gameplan is outdated, as is Melbourne's contest style despite some great players, much better than ours really.
Sure we have infantilsed and feminised the players or in many cases drafted ones with these traits and low competitiveness. The only bloke (post Setanta) who ever got fired up at training and actually was pissed when he wasn't playing is now at the Dogs, whilst Millions McKay and Elijah take time to appreciate things "bigger things than football".
AFL warrior Vossy now sounds like a buzz word HR manager, he adapted because that's what he thought would be wanted of him, and ironically the Warrior image was his main/only strength.
Voss won't tweak because he doesn't have any idea how to, the assistant coaches and psych well there's nothing happening there either. Jordan Russell's results with the attacking group defies logic how he is still there.
C&P game style with no chance of finals and blokes fully checked out, old heads getting hammy and calf tightness, this is going to get really ugly. He'll be gone by the Suns game, and needs to be, to avoid more than De Koining leaving in October.

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Green Shooter

So which "tweaks" would you like to see made to the game style, that Voss hasn't tried?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

winning, for starters

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my last one was rubbish

ADMIRE THIS RESPONSE.

Measured, by your own valued metrics, and respectful towards opposite opinion.

You've stayed the course and steadfast on this position Des. That's admirable, albeit with simple reasoning: the buck ends with the Coach regardless of who or what is at fault.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and debate over the last few days, proving that discussion of the poignant points has been revived with deep intelligent discussion at TC.

This is much better than the usual Neanderthal responses Ive seen over the last 2 years to any discussion...(taking advantage of lenient Moderators, combined with a lack of thought and respect towards fellow posters may be the reason) such as "you have to have rocks in your head to think Vossy can coach", "you are stuck in the last century to think any team other than a Vossy team would play 2 rucks", " my mate told me x said this, so its fact...." ....The usual attack the poster with unintelligent drivel as the supporting evidence.

Great to see the standards have lifted.

No one knows for sure if Voss should see out his contract, or not. WE all have our position after a lot of thought. I think there are bigger issues than Voss to deal with.

The media speculate, and write their opinions like they are fact. The likes of Scott Gullan writing about TDK, picking and choosing evidence to support his argument/ speculation, and deliberately avoiding all the evidence just proves to me he is giving only a one sided commentary, like he is GOD, even when his facts are completely false and an obvious free hit at Carlton....but no one says anything about his bullshit....because ....it suits agendas?

Agendas are not helpful. In order to make our Team great we must drop agendas, and try and find the best solution looking going forward. Hasty decisions and opinions encouraged by media to divide, do not hold our club's/ team's interest at heart. Remeber that. The media are our enemy. Most don't like Carlton, simply because they don't barrack for them. The other reason's are connected with their Agenda.

The media don't know as much about Carlton as we do, because they don't live and breath Carlton, but the Media want us to think they know everything, and they are right, and we are wrong.

The big question shouldn't be as simple as a YES or NO answer as to Vossy's continued tenure, the question should be based on defining the backdrop to Vossy's tenure, then after we consider what was working for Vossy when we had success, and what Vossy couldn't control when we experienced failure.

Following that the debate whether Carlton Football Team, and the Carlton Football Club would be better or worse off in 2026, 2027,2028, 2029, 2030, from sacking another coach to remain consistent with the "Carlton way" of doing things in the past; something that has failed us for the last quarter of a century.

Vossy hasn't been at Carlton for a fifth of that quarter of a century, and with Vossy, the same problems of the past haven't gone away.

Maybe the problem isn't all Vossy. I don't think that everything is wrong like keogh suggests. The past is gone. The Malhouse, Pagan, Mathieson, Pratt days are gone. Their influnce on the club is zero. I know that. If Bruce Mathieson focussed on Carlton, as much as keogh focusses on Mathieson, that would be interference.

For those who take keogh's hypothesis as fact, don't have any idea of the beautiful lifestyle Mathieson is enjoying on the Gold Coast, whether Carlton wins or loses, and is content, like me, to donate money to the club, because he loves it, its the club he supports. Its normal to donate and not have anything to do with Football decisions. Its fanciful to think he's using the club, like Elliot did, as his toy. He can just afford to give a bit more than you and me.

Focus on the Football Dept, and we will find the solution:

Football Director
GM of Football
Head of S & C
S & C resources
Doctors, physios, Psyches...
Recruiting
List Management
Coaching & Performance Mgr
Coach
Assistant coaches
Line Coaches
Statisticians

Player metrics

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

You see, the Coach is just one cog, albeit a very important one, in this wheel that turns every day.

I can pinpoint more important issues than the coach which need to be addressed before 2026 starts.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

And, anyone thinking the S & C area has been under the spotlight for just the last 2 years are dreaming.
Fitness and injury has been a huge problem for the club since the year we won our first ever wooden spoon in 2002.
The injury list continued to grow in 2002, to the point we had 21 players out injured.
Nevertheless, we Brittain was the scapegoat, despite having some brilliant qualities as a tactician and strategist.

Sound familiar? Have a look at the win loss record and you will see even more similarities.

Lets just focus on the team after the green shoots flourished, post Bolton and Teague, because anyone wanting to think Bolton and Teague were hard done by need to realise we had more able senior players on the List, than we do circa 2025, and better senior players around the more able green shoots than we have this year. If injury was the reason for Bolton's and Teague's failure, then yes, they were infortunate to be sacked because that was out of their control, just as that is the case for Voss. Did much change from sacking coaches? If not, what was missed by the club and its supporters?

Let me remind you. This was the injury list vs GWS ...remember that game? They had 17 on the ground vs 18 for the last half of the last quarter:

Docherty, Jones, Weitering, Williamson, Plowman, Kreuzer, Philips, Fisher, Silvagni, Cuningham, Glass-Mc, McDaid (rookie), DeBois (rookie). 11 Best 23 and 2 rookies. Familiar? See Round 1 this year.

We filled the abovementioned spots with: O'Shea, Thomas, Byrne, Rowe, Lang, Graham, Lamb, Kerrdge, Mullet, Macreadie, Casboult, ..... check out SKILLED players.....not.

The Moral to this story is, the sacking of Bolton and Teague, because of injury and perhaps a lack of AFL skilled players to replace the injured led to their downfall. Period. Same happened in 2002.

A weak playing List will not give you success.

History is repeating itself. Look past the coach for a minute, and the major problem with the product will become clear. The Product is the Best 23 week in week out.

I am not suggesting every player on the list is a liability. I am saying we have at least 15 great players to build from, and its fixable within a year, or two.

Its the List that needs a shake up imo.

We need skilled players who want to play for Carlton and hate to lose.....success can be achieved (and we knew this from watchin Hawks win Flags galore around 2017) ...go to war and play unsociable footy. Push the limits of the body and the law. Look after your mates. Let no one bully. Become the Bully. What year is it again?...oh yeah....2025.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Football Director - someone with experience in the modern game.

GM of Football - Abolished
Coaching & Performance Manager - Abolished
Development & Talent Manager - Abolished
Senior Assistant Coach - Abolished

GM of Football Performance - New

Head Coach - AFL
- Assistant Coach (Backs)
- Assistant Coach (Midfielders)
- Assistant Coach (Forwards)
- VFL Coach

Head of High Performance
- Medical
- Physio
- Psych
- Etc

Head Coach - AFLW
- Assistant Coach (Backs)
- Assistant Coach (Midfielders)
- Assistant Coach (Forwards)
- VFLW Coach

GM of Football Talent - New

Head of Development
- Development Coach (Skills - AFL)
- Development Coach (Strategy - AFL)
- Development Coach (Skills - AFLW)
- Development Coach (Strategy - AFLW)

Head of The Carlton Academy
- Academy Staff

Head of List Management
- List Management Strategy (AFL)
- List Management Strategy (AFLW)
- Recruitment Manager
-> Recruiting Operations (AFL & VFL)
-> Recruiting Operations (AFLW & VFLW)

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

I think that's a good structure but I'd retain a senior assistant. Having a football director with experience in the modern game is a definite. The Diesel appointment is old school Carlton and tells me as much as we've progressed, we still make stupid decisions.

My one addition would be an innovation coach who sits outside the coaching group. It's been a bugbear of mine for years that we're missing an opportunity in this field. We need someone who follows the game holisticallyl, assesses the analytics in a holistic manner and determines/predicts where the game is heading (or where it could be exploited in the future). The coaches are too concerned with the day to day performance of CFC where we need someone external to that.

The recent Richmond premiership style of play was created by necessity. If it wasn't for injury, it may never have seen the light of day in its current form. We need someone a bit eccentric who can present to the football department monthly (including recruiting) with ideas, suggestions, projections on where the game could be in the 3 years or where it could be exploited today. Random, out of the box ideas where we may take 1 gem out of 10 suggestions. That is where the future is assessed and created, not followed.
AFL clubs tend to live in the present. Innovation doesn't flourish in that space.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.