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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am
Posts: 1971
Keogh,

That's not even near the full story of how bookmaker's or betting agencies frame or flunctuate their markets. To put it simple in a race with sixteen possible winners, the person framing their market, will use their expert judgement & the expertise at their disposal, to break the field into say, likely winners, possible winners and unlikely winners.

When a bookmaker is interviewed about his market for a big race - he will say he's framed his market with four or five horses he thinks can win. So your probability equation is really based closely around the determined favourites in a market - not the whole sixteen teams.

An outsider winning an event is a good result for bookmakers because the punter's judgement, is the same as his and not much money is placed on an outside chance. The outsider is outside any tight probability equation because it doesn't recieve much interest from any money.

In the old days before such instant communication, betting plunges trapped bookmakers into a result because a big punter would hire enough people to lay bets on the same horse with every bookmaker on a race track at the one time, so bookmakers couldn't lay off against eachother because no one would accept a substantial enough bet at high enough odds to cover another bookmaker's losses, because they were already personally losing too much.

The bottom line of bookmaking as the name suggests works to the principles of basic bookeeping, probability equations are factored into judgement of setting & adjusting markets around those judged to be favoured to succeed or fail as the wooden spoon market is concerned. Factoring in probability of judgement is also how some punters operate betting systems - a punter using such a system will factor statistics so he will place money on bet ie. a horse or football team. when that bet gets lowered to a certain odd - because the history of the market tells him at this odd the bet will have a better probability of a return. So believe it or not, the punter in such a system will wait for the odds to shorten, then place the bet at the highest odd his history of statistics instructs him.

You may hear a sports betting agency rep on a radio station, say something like, "After Adelaide's great form we've recieved some huge bets, so their odds have come right in to be equal favourite.", maybe some big money punters did back Adelaide, but a betting agent will bring in the odds further than what the big bets pushed the odds, to stop too much further money coming in on a likely result & balance their losses against what history tells them how much future money they are probable to recieve.

The success of a bookmaker or betting agency on a bet type, ( or an event - ie. bookmakers would look at the AFL season as an event - matching their the results of different bet types against each other to make the market for a bet type more interesting for a punter. ie. Carlton could shorten in a point because to the average sports fan, which sports betting is aimed at, their interest is captured by having Carlton at even shorter odds - to put it simply a market has to succesfully advertise itself. Too many people's eye's Carlton at $2.20 for the spoon is an attractive bet, for their egos, not for their better judgement. 'Ego judgement' if you like is how betting agencies fish for more people's money & how they keep winning it, because sports punters barrack first and punt second, that's the nature of their judgement.

To Sportsbet Carlton look the most likely to win the spoon, but an important factor is that other teams' supporters love to place this bet against a team they hate when it's down, so the odds come in even further than what the probaility equation based on six, not sixteen teams may suggest. Bookmakers would add to their judgement of a team's season, factors like - Richmond are notorious under achievers that have a bad rep with punters so they're at lower odds, Essendon* are hated like Carlton & people are always thinking this year will be the one the Kangaroos fall over.

The minor discrepancies in losses on results can be adjusted by the fielder later in the duration of the AFL season - Keogh that's why sports betting agencies markets are so protected by your calculations, and also how you rightly say they really make money. If a betting agency latter in the season is losing too much on a result for a season long market, this will lower a teams odds for games later in the season, so in effect bookmakers set odds against their own markets.

Michael Eskander, a leading Melbourne Bookmaker was so pissed that the Victorian Government was stalling his sports betting licence because he knew he was losing money to sports betting agencies that worked on creating markets with multiple genuine possibilities, that could adjust odds on that market and other bet types, to protect the money coming in at a specific time against their odds over a long duration. Eskander also knew his clientel would bet with a fielder who could offer them both race and sports betting, and he'd lose out on his slice of the sports betting pie, because history told him his punters wouldn't return.

Online sports betting agencies, are a way to earn interest. That's why PBL just entered a relationship with Betfair, who operate a bookmaking system that play on a punter's 'judgement of sport'. In Betfair's early origins in Australia, both joint owners will use their substantial bank to offer punters above the price odds on bets according to their business principle calculations, aiming to spread the word of mouth on this type of betting & make it part of Australian culture, but I reckon Singo won't have a Betfair account.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:25 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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simmo wrote:
Personly, i love taking on the bookies, and in this case just about every journo in the country, who all have the blues for the spoon. My cash will be on teams like the roo's or port.


The Roos just missed out on a top 4 finish last year. To go from that to dead last would be disasterous.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:25 am 
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Bruce Doull
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See...........

now i understood exactly what 79 said.........nicely and
politely put............!

you may think you have a "Beautiful Mind" Keogh........
but don't try and play that game with me buddy........!

your a rude arrogant self-righteous %$#@.....and the thought
of you teaching our children out there.....scares the hell
out of me........!

do you call your students IGNORANT........!

you might think this is an attack on your character......
your wrong......you define your character beautifully for us
all to see..............!


tommi








i'm not hiding behind the pewta either...........i've made myself
known........so don't think of this as a "sitting behind my
screen attack".......!



and remember...............you started this..........!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:50 am 
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Rod Ashman
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It may please you to know that there's basically zilch money for Carlton to win the spoon at those ridiculous odds. Brisbane has been heavily backed to win it and the Kangaroos. Collingwood too.

There's more money on us to win the flag than to win the spoon funnily enough, but some people will put money on every year

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:31 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6476
Dear tommi


Whats the problem with you man.
If you read what 79 vintage says we basically agree

If I was an arrogant cauliflower as you suggest I would be a crap teacher but I am not and most of the kids in my class think I am a good teacher.

I dont really care what you think of me personally but this site isnt for making personal attacks on people's character.It basically means your worse in that regard compared to what you think of me.


Ignorance is defined as having very little knowledge on a particular subject and its obvious some have in relation to bookies markets.That is not a personel attack on people .That is stating the obvious.


I dont think I am Russell Crowe in real life either.In fact some of the most gifted people cant put their message across.I am in the opposite camp.


What do you do for a living Tommi.What ever it is I dont intend to critizcize you about it because I wouldnt know how good or bad you would be based on a few posts on a website.You are ignorant on whether I am good at my job or not so dont bring up the subject again please.



As for you 79 thanks for that post.I still think the odds for the spoon are over the top but I understand more about bookmaking.

See tommi constructive posts.



Kindest Regards..............................
Keogh


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:48 am 
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Ken Hunter
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suck them apples tommi

8)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:21 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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fevolaaaa wrote:
It may please you to know that there's basically zilch money for Carlton to win the spoon at those ridiculous odds. Brisbane has been heavily backed to win it and the Kangaroos. Collingwood too.

There's more money on us to win the flag than to win the spoon funnily enough, but some people will put money on every year


See, this is where I get confused. Given the Roos just missed out on finishing top 4 last year, the probability of them dropping all the way to last must be highly unlikely. Sure, it's not impossible, but the likelihood is so remote it isn't worth betting on. Okay, so if they do finish last the rewards would be large, but that's a pretty big "IF" based on the balance of probabilities.

Surely there are better bets than the Roos.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:33 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6476
Verbs

The Kangas are 9 bucks for the spoon.Their midfield if they stay healthy will get them over the line in enough games,but odds should be a lot higher as explained in previous posts.


Whilst on the Roos I am a big rap for Harris.If you are having a punt on the Brownlow wack a tenner on this guy.Very underated.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:38 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am
Posts: 1971
verbs wrote:
fevolaaaa wrote:
It may please you to know that there's basically zilch money for Carlton to win the spoon at those ridiculous odds. Brisbane has been heavily backed to win it and the Kangaroos. Collingwood too.

There's more money on us to win the flag than to win the spoon funnily enough, but some people will put money on every year


See, this is where I get confused. Given the Roos just missed out on finishing top 4 last year, the probability of them dropping all the way to last must be highly unlikely. Sure, it's not impossible, but the likelihood is so remote it isn't worth betting on. Okay, so if they do finish last the rewards would be large, but that's a pretty big "IF" based on the balance of probabilities.

Surely there are better bets than the Roos.


Verbs,

Every year there is a consensus amongst football 'experts' and many fans, that the Kangaroos won't make the eight and could finish down the bottom. A bookmaker may personally judge that the Kangaroos will make the eight, but still have them at tight odds for the spoon, because he has to frame his market for how much money will come for this bet, not what he thinks will happen. So lets say he expects to recieve a substantial amount of uneducated money. The bookmaker isn't taking bets against his own judgement but matching his own judgement against the judgement, bias and habits of his punters.

The Kangaroos price also creates talk in the market, because people look at the prices and say to their firends, "Look the Kangaroos are short again for the spoon.", igniting people's biases. Roos supporters might look at the sppoon market and say, "Stuff you bookmaker, we're better than that!", then get into the bookmaker by placing money for the Roos to win the premiership - which to the bookmaker's judgement is like taking money for jam. Look at Collingwood at $15 for the spoon, surely they should at shorter odds than that, but the thing is Collingwood supporters will look at that price and think, "The bookmaker's reckon we're not one of the favourites for the spoon, I reckon we'll be alright this year, i might have some lazy money for us on the flag.", - another good bet for the bookmaker. These prices may be 'false', but they serve the purpose of generating funds for a bookmaker/betting agency.


Last edited by 79Vintage on Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:44 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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I guess I wasn't really querying the Roos' price, rather why anyone would bet on them in the first place. From a punter's perspective, potential returns would be better sought backing them to miss the 8. The likelihood of them going from 5th to last is pretty remote.

But I suppose this discussion is more about odds rather than who to bet on.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:54 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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what a peculiar thread


tommi, Dr Jarusa recommends no posts after midnight on the main board for you.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:03 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Oh i see.............

becouse you can read a book and i can't there's a
difference is there............?

79 didn't call me ignorant either..........so don't start giving
me Websters definitions here.......you used the word....and
you knew exactly what capacity you were using it in...........!

as far as my issues with you.........well that's just me
picking up on some rumblings you seem to have had with me a while
ago...........REMEMBER.......?

you were questioning my ability to comunicate with
the people on this forum..............?

REMEMBER..........or has that beautiful mind of yours
forgotten.........?

you started it.........i'm continuing it............and if you think
i can't judge your personality by just a few posts on
a website...........then your wrong....so very wrong......!


tommi







and please tell me were i called you a CEEEE...........i'm pretty
sure i didn't call you that....so please don't put words in my
posts.............!





hey Dee Boy...........the apples thing wasn't bad.......
different movie......but not bad........i had a chuckle........!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:10 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am
Posts: 1971
Tommi mate,

You have to admit...well...you can't deny, you are, you are a little...well, dotty.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:18 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I think the bookies odds would be just about right. We have been by far the worst team the last 3 years. Even in a year where we won all the close ones and caught teams on bad days we still only finished 10th.
If a good friend gave you $10k and asked you to put it on who you think will finish last, who would you put it on?
You'd put it on the same team everyone is backing for the spoon, hence the odds.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:25 am 
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Ken Hunter
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What a peculiar thread.....


Self fulfilling prophecy! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:38 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Oh Kay Dr Jarr..........

i think your right there..........i must control my urge.........!







urrrrge.......that's a funny word hey........urrrrge........
i have an urrrge..........resist the urrrrge.........placate the
urrrge...........!








placate...........lookout....here we go again........!


either way.......your right Dr Jarr........!


kindest regards tommi









oh....sorry Keogh i didn't arnswer your question........!

i'm a Dental Technician by trade..........so if it's teeth your after.........!

i'm also a qualified florist and floral designer..........you may laugh
at that if you like.......!

and in my spare time i play music................for money.........!

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that'siti'mnotchangingthistagain......!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:39 am 
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Ken Hunter
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in other words a smiling, sweet smelling, drummer 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:45 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Ta-DAHHHH.........

the defence rests your honour..............!


kindest regards tommi

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:27 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6476
Tommi Are you a drummer.I play guitar.That might explain why there is a difference in the line of thinking.


And as for offending you some time back honestly I cant remember but please enlighten me. I sincerely apologise if this has been stressful.




And can you send me your ten favourite bands out of interest.
And what 4 letter word were you implying out of interest.

Ps Were you one of the 16 or so drummers in Spinal Tap?

Oh and by the way this thread is about betting odds at the footy and 79 vintage has enlighten us all about it.Well done


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:45 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Betting's a mugs game.


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