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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:55 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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boy, I can't wait for the next, and last, coaching thread.

I wonder who will start it???? maybe Pagan himself! Pagan himself, announcing first on the site that he's resigning... now THAT would put an end to the "sack the coach" threads.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:58 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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How many times can all of this be regurgitated?

And to achieve what?

It's all hypothetical and going over old ground endlessly for what?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:02 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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OK, when this thread reaches 100 pages, the mods can lock it on 5pm that day, and the very last poster on the thread can start the "Ultimate Coach-sacking thread"?

Oh, wait, or am I thinking of Warren's replacement....?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:24 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Gee let me think 4thchicken... maybe because someone posted it on a forum it may not actually be true? :garthp:

4thchicken spouted:
Quote:
deluca - umm.. no - I'd back almost any of our other players to lead up and mark the ball ahead of deluca - regardless of height!

Why would you waste a better forward on the wing in a set play...
Forwards drag their opponents up the wing all the time anyway.

Quote:
fevola - the comments about shouldering responsibility - if he is a top liner he should be shouldering responsibility - regardless of whether you are 18,21 or 28 - topliners must take responsibility and to suggest otherwise is a copout

Chris Judd-mentality :garthp:
Last year would have been the year when a player of his type would have stamped his name on the competiton or late the year before... let's analyze what happened:

Late 2004 - Fevola kicks 21 goals in 3 weeks and gets suspended.

2005 - Fevola starts promisingly, form drops off a bit due to general team ineptitude and resultant dummy spitting then he does his groin.

You're going well so far...

Quote:
russell - umm... no he wouldnt be getting a game in a few other sides in the competition. From all respected reports, Russell was nowhere near selection. He didnt have any form of note prior to his selection and a realistic assessment of his time at the bullants last season would suggest that he was not ready yet.

Sometimes you have to give a player a taste, and he has certainly grown from last year, to his first game this year, then to this week. From all reports prior to being dropped in the pre-season was that he was progressing very well so an educated person could in fact say the issue may have lied more with his confidence (he is know to be an introvert) rather than physical or mental ineptitude.

Quote:
saddington - so why is he in the team?

Name a player more deserving of his spot and do not name Edwards, Setanta or Bower, because they are not. If you read what I wrote again you will notice I said in a better team, so I was analyzing the players in our 22 and how they would fair on other playing lists.

Quote:
most of our midfielders - you have listed everyone of them as 'should not have to shoulder the responsibility' - wtf? so who should be responsible?

So as to not state the complete obvious I will now name each member of our midfield rotation (from our entire playing list) and their age along with games played.

Bannister, 23 years, 37 games
Benitck, 20 years, 19 games
Betts, 19 years, 24 games
Carrazzo, 22 years, 27 games
Chambers, 26 years, 66 games
Davies, 21 years, 41 games
Houlihan, 24 years, 119 games
Koutoufides, 33 years, 254 games
Lappin, 30 years, 219 games
Longmuir, 26 years, 82 games
McGrath, 27 years, 63 games
Murphy, 18 years, 5 games
Prendergast, 25 years, 62 games
Russell, 19 years, 3 games
Scotland, 25 years, 99 games (good luck next week Heath)
Simpson, 21 years, 26 games
Sporn, 23 years, 44 games
Stevens, 26 years, 174 games
Waite, 23 years, 53 games (only just)
Walker 19 years, 38 games.

Average age for all probable midfield players: 25.35 years (excluding days).

Average games: 72.75

It's a list of young developing players, veterans, journey man with only two midfielders you would consider established and still young in Houlihan and Stevens.

Last nights midfield pool, and currently our best:
Bannister, Bentick, Betts, Carrazzo, Houlihan, Koutoufides, Lappin, Murphy, Russell, Scotland, Stevens, Simpson, Walker.

Average age: 23
Average games played: 80
2 vets (Lappin, Kouta), 2 journeyman (Scotland, Bannister).

But those of a statistical mind are aware of things that are called outliers, that is data that is extreme and severely sways the data one way or the other.

Outliers in this case would be Vets and Rookies, so let's yank out Russell, Murphy, Kouta and Lappin.

Corrected average age: 22.1 years
Corrected average games: 62 games

That's close to 3 full seasons of AFL footy in the first four years on a senior list, of course some players are rookie elevations, have started playing at 17 and so forth but we're dealing with the average, so age 18, 4 seasons of footy at 22.

No matter which way you look at it, our midfield as a unit wouldn't exist in normal circumstances on a decent playing list, with the inconsistency of youth and the lacklustre of aging we're putting too much on too few in Houla, Stevens and Scotland.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:29 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Who the crap merged the threads... :?

KK said
Quote:
So you want this to be the second last thread about the coach and replacing him?

No, we're not the CFC, so this the penultimate source. The second last stop.

Warby I'm trying to turn mud raking about Pagan into a constructive dialogue that maybe, just maybe, someone with influence might read and find of value. That's my hope.

Tyrant, I'm trying to curb the threads in my own way, then someone @#$%&! merged it...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:29 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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jimmae wrote:
Fitness and conditioning coach: Unsure, if only Craig Bradley was qualified... Terry Mulkerns (sp?) is a very solid choice though. If we could afford a world class coach in this department the results would be amazing.

Other roles: Pretty satisfied with that.

Let the antics begin! :lol:


His name is Peter Mulkearns.

You've spent a large portion of the day on this stuff Jimmae.
Unfortunately it's all rhetoric, cliches and nonsensical piss and wind as usual.

Jimmae wrote:
Would you prefer we dulled down the flood and loose defenders and zoning so that our defenders get carved up when they lose a second on the lead on their man for not paying attention to what he's doing?


Was that before or after "they legitimised the handball"?

If you're going to accuse others of delivering "headless chook stuff", start following your own advice.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:43 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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BV, what you just did is piss and wind... you failed to do anything other than say "See this bloke? Well he's wrong."

And then of course you run off without actually providing a rebuttal.

I apologise to Peter, he's actually an old friend of my mother's. I went blank. :oops:

I wrote:
Quote:
Would you prefer we dulled down the flood and loose defenders and zoning so that our defenders get carved up when they lose a second on the lead on their man for not paying attention to what he's doing?

You disagree how BV? 9 times out of 10 I see our blokes never catching up on a leading player, and there isn't much that can be done to curb this other than paying attention to your man, pressuring the player kicking to the lead or dropping a few blokes in the way. Anything else is as a result of a physical attribute of player and is not a tactic.

Do we pay attention? Not enough.
Do we pressure the oppositions midfield? Not enough.
Can we drop some blokes in the way? Sure.

BV wrote:
Quote:
Was that before or after "they legitimised the handball"?

If you're going to accuse others of delivering "headless chook stuff", start following your own advice.

The flick pass and then the handball were near useless forms of disposal until the late 50s and then the 60s, with guys like Polly Farmer. It became part of a players arsenal rather than a technique to bail out when under pressure, making it a legitimate form of disposal. You can be thick sometimes.

Excuse me for abbreviating a writing piece from thesis length to that of a simple essay and you not following what I'm talking about.

I must be a buffoon full of hot air who just scribbles down insults and spouts how everyone else lacks substance... oh wait, that's you.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:05 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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jimmae wrote:
BV, what you just did is piss and wind... you failed to do anything other than say "See this bloke? Well he's wrong."


You know why Jimmae?
Because as usual you are.

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Last edited by Blue Vain on Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:05 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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jimmae wrote:
Who the crap merged the threads... :?


One of the mods?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:16 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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GWS wrote:
4thchicken wrote:
GWS wrote:
preacher wrote:
Passionate discussion all round. But facts are facts. Fact number one is that Pagan doesn't communicate well with the younger players and the older blokes (whilst they don't despise him) don't embrace him either. Kouta for instance was hauled over the coals by DP a few weeks back when Kouta made those comments about Brittain. Kouta walked away shrugging his shoulders and mumbling something about "who cares......". I wonder if anyone walks away from a session with Worsfold with that attitude?


Michael Gardiner perhaps?

If there's a problem with this scenario it's not Denis hauling Kouta over the coals it's Kouta's attitude and the fact that Denis didn't send him to the bullants for 8 weeks.

Absolute bloody disgrace for a captain of an AFL team to be doing that in front of others.

Worst captain ever (closely followed by Ratten).


dont think koutas comments on brittain were anything that would require him to be hauled over the coals?


You don't think Kouta's comments were an intentional public slap in the face to Denis? :?

I don't think Kouta's the brightest spark going around but he's not that stupid that he didn't know how those comments would be perceived by many people.


Why fault a man who speaks what he really thinks?

Without the stronger characters football clubs become weak.

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to who is meant to be the Club leader.

Is it the coach? The captain? The president?

I reckon it's the captain.

The coach is many levels below the players in the importance factors. When a player, let alone a captain, has praise for a past coach, it speaks volumes for their efforts...and, in this case, speaks even more of exactly what Pagan has brought to the Carlton Football Club.

Damn you Elliot!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:21 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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He was asked a legitimate question and gave an honest answer.
Full credit to the guy for it.

If Pagan feels threatened by that, he needs thicker skin.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:08 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Blue Vain wrote:
jimmae wrote:
BV, what you just did is piss and wind... you failed to do anything other than say "See this bloke? Well he's wrong."


You know why Jimmae?
Because as usual you are.

So you have enough time to tell me I'm wrong, but you don't have enough time to prove me wrong? Can you even do that?

I'm speculating, you're antagonising. Stop hijacking a thread because it's no longer the head-bashing moronic agenda that it was started with.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:48 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Pagan hardly used the bench because as he quoted on 3AW last night "we are trying to condition the players to play 4 qrts of football, not 3 qrt and we thought that our senior midfield players were getting enough of the ball and to take them off to bring on a young player doing his apprenticeship may have hurt us"




Carlton coach Denis Pagan lamented his team's poor use of the ball and believed his players were worn down physically as the game went on.

"As it turned out a couple were short of a gallop and got really tired in the finish. It was a demanding game and it was last man standing at the finish," Pagan said.

well which is it

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:06 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Both. We bench our key midfielders, we lose a lot of drive. Pagan needs to work this into his match tactics, I'm sure he'll develop an effective way.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:33 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Warby wrote:
Warby wrote:
This is Grant Thomas's 6th year with a talent laden list.....and....?

This is Mick Malthouse's 7th year with a talented list....and....?

This is Pagan's 4th year with virtually no talent in comparison; and we want him out?


Warby wrote:
Oh.....and Bomber Thompson's 7th year with a heap of talent....and....?


Sydney Blue wrote:
and how many flags have those nominated won again lets count shall we - You start Warby



Pagan's won 2 and Malthouse 2....(With other teams) and your point is?


Pagan 0 at this club
Malthouse 0 in 7 years at Collingwood
Thompson 0 in 7
thomas 0 in 6

Point is all these coaches along with Connolly are building a football side - giving their players time to develop .Supporters are buying their spill and i in the mean time blokes like Roos - Craig look at what they have and work with it .

At this stage of the year Adelaide look shoe ins for the flag and at the start of last year people were picking them for bottom 2

Same thing happened to the Swans - they were ear marked for the spoon two years before winning the flag.

Your a smart man Warby - You work it out

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:38 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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GWS wrote:
preacher wrote:
Passionate discussion all round. But facts are facts. Fact number one is that Pagan doesn't communicate well with the younger players and the older blokes (whilst they don't despise him) don't embrace him either. Kouta for instance was hauled over the coals by DP a few weeks back when Kouta made those comments about Brittain. Kouta walked away shrugging his shoulders and mumbling something about "who cares......". I wonder if anyone walks away from a session with Worsfold with that attitude?


Michael Gardiner perhaps?

If there's a problem with this scenario it's not Denis hauling Kouta over the coals it's Kouta's attitude and the fact that Denis didn't send him to the bullants for 8 weeks.

Absolute bloody disgrace for a captain of an AFL team to be doing that in front of others.

Worst captain ever (closely followed by Ratten).


How dare anyone not say that Denis is the man and nobody is better than him.

You like bagging past players dont you

Worst coach ever (Closely followed by Stewart)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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choo wrote:
Pagan hardly used the bench because as he quoted on 3AW last night "we are trying to condition the players to play 4 qrts of football, not 3 qrt and we thought that our senior midfield players were getting enough of the ball and to take them off to bring on a young player doing his apprenticeship may have hurt us"




Carlton coach Denis Pagan lamented his team's poor use of the ball and believed his players were worn down physically as the game went on.

"As it turned out a couple were short of a gallop and got really tired in the finish. It was a demanding game and it was last man standing at the finish," Pagan said.

well which is it



18 of our guys we want to play 4 quarters and 4 to play no quarters...

18 are out of puff and 4 are fresh but dont come on....

@#$%&! thats weird shit!!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:07 am 
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Harry Vallence

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bondiblue wrote:
I'm neither here nor there when it comes to Pagan. I do feel a lot of people waste alot of positive energy when discussing Pagan, and whilst that energy is exhausted with the focus on calls for his head there's still no alternatives, that make sense, to change the current situation.

What I saw last night was alot of mistakes which is to be expected from the kids, but a lot of great signs and another foward step from Walker, Simpson and Murphy, who looked as though they nearly had what it takes to be match winners. That will happen one day. I saw a lot of potential in Russell for the first time. Will generate a lot of drive from HB. Most importantly I saw Houla give all our guys a lesson on silky skills needed for success at this level.

Supporters are looking for excuses. Cheap shots and lacking pragmatism. So Pagan is the blame for everything?

Pagan didn't kick the ball over Waite's head.
Pagan didn't kick 2.4
Pagan didn't drop 7 marks
Pagan didn't have 2 wild shots from 55-60 meters out of goal when there was better options.

Then there's the exaggerated argument that suggests that Pagan won games with the Kangas because he had Wayne Carey at CHF. Carey missed the start of his two last seasons with North and missed a few more games during those seasons as his body was deteriorating from the rigours of a contact game, and the Kangas did win most games without Carey at CHF.

Pagan was able to move his players emotionally from the day he started coaching, and the kids at Carlton respect him. They're really the only ones that count in the Pagan issue for me.

Sure there was a wall of stubborness when he took over as coach at Carlton, from old hasbeens at Carlton, who took Carlton to its first wooden spoon, and this was and still is perceived as a player management issue with Pagan. I'm glad he got rid of those players, because they used all their credits ASAIK. It's a tough job and tough decisions needed to be made. He made them.

Pagan took the job with Carlton, assuming he was coming to one of the 4 powerhouse teams, and we wanted him. I felt so sorry for him after assuming his position only to be confronted with the illusion of a powerhouse; exposed as a struggling club. A $1M penalty, effectively bankrupting the club, Draft penalties for the next 2 years effectively closing the door on high drafts necassary for rebuilding, an overthrow of a President resulting in a Richmondesque brawl that continues today. Pagan did not bring this upon the team, and it's the football club that has to take ownership of these issues.

The board recently made a decision to go along the youth and development path. That was a directive I hadn't heard before, and surely the only logical path forward given the quantity and quality of youth we have drafted, and playing well.

It's the same supporters that last week were excited by the legion of youth we have drafted in the last 2 years, that were prepared to accept growth pains with our kids, because we accept that it's the only way forward, and that they will come good in 2007 or 2008.

Now these kids are on the paddock and making mistakes, lose a game and Pagan becomes the scapegoat. Pagan tells us week in week out the reasons for the losses and I agree with him. What is he supposed to say? Nothing? I'd rather hear the truth. We could have won but we lost the 4 ponts. We made a lot of skill eras, and bad choices. Fair enough you have to say, as they are only kids. Fair dinkum there's a bigger picture unfolding, it's more than promising but patience is required during the rebuilding, and don't forget that. We all know it.

If our coach is sacked mid season this year or next, how is that going to drive memberships? How does that change the list? How does that fast track our kids? If memebership increase relies on success, well that will come, and we have to plan with that in mind. Fact of life, a new coach will not all of the sudden generate wins every game.

FFS have a look at the situation

22 pt win (WCE)
5 pt win (WB)


22 pt win (Melb) Rnd 1
15 pt loss (Freo) Rnd 2
7 pt loss (Swans) Rnd 3
32 pt loss (Haw) Rnd 4
9 pt loss (Rich) Rnd 5

Not bad for a bunch of kids, and they could have stolen all those games they lost too, if this and if that...these are the kids who will develop and get better, and will win games, and will get us to finals. Back them.

As for who is responsible for skills, well they have a lot to answer.

I'm looking for stability, and not cheap shots and head hunting. That's all bullshit and futile. I don't care too much for all the Houla Lance and Fev haters, because hate is in their nature, (refer to Mrs Houlihan thread and compare this one) and they're the ones who also hate Pagan, but offer no suggestions on how we can improve, other than the standard blame game and sack him and him and him, rather than we need to improve here and here.

Get real, we are on the march up. If you haven't got the stomach to accept our journey, take a break as you're not prepeared for the no pain no gain situation we are in.

I'm backing this team today and beyond, because I can see the light.
If you want to improve all it takes is for our players to start believing they are good enough to match it with anyone in the competition. And it needs to start from the coaching down. The buck stops with him. If Pagan was a true carlton man and wanted us to be successful then he would now that these kids need legends of the club to be around the club and give them postivies energy. you would be amazed how that would work wonders. It is amazing what players can achieve when they believe in there coach. The players have to want to kill for there coach. Have a look at Adeliade, West coast, Sydney, Bulldogs. These clubs all have weaknesses but they cover for them why? becuase they belive in there teammates and in their coach. Why becasue there coaches have made them believe they are worth something. where were the Eagles 3 years ago, Adelaide 2 years ago, bulldogs 2 years ago. Oh yeah thats right they all had negative coaches. It is amazing how quickly it can turnaround when a coach believes in his players and they believe in him!!!!!!!!!! So lets get real and lets do something about it. Its time for us to put the presurre on from all outlets to media to the club and let them know for Pagan and his merry men who are killing careers at carlton and we should feel ashamed because we are letting this happen to our club that he has to go. NO matter what it costs

We have to come together!!!! The line in the sand has been drawn!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:31 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Synbad wrote:
The club is looking at SOS... in my opinion he would be a huge mistake.
Mitchell is the man.. and id bring Voss in as an assistant...along with a couple of other thinkers and skills people.


I think they we will go for Mitchell but will have SOS as an assistant..Voss may want to leave Brisbane and do his apprentciship elswhere but then do a Worsfold and return to the top job...worth asking.

Mitchell has the reputation as a good coach of youngsters and that is essentially what we will have...bit of a no name coach but Clarkson and Thompson seemed to have overcome those barriers and made it a bit more fashionable to have a no name rather than going back to Ayres etc...
I think Denis is at the end of his tenure with us and should work out a deal as suggested......its not working and we need a coach with a fresh approach and some new ideas...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:09 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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People better start paying attention to the way they reply to posts.

Why is it so hard for you to criticise or support Pagan, the players, the club, the assistants etc etc etc, without having little digs at each other?

Stick to presenting your points of view, not the silly little name-calling, tongue-poking out comments that seem to be creeping in.


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