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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:40 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18082
Conundrum wrote:
Our decision making is third world standard, a reflection of our record of recruiting non thinking footballers.


You're half right.

Our decision making is atrocious but it's got nothing to do with recruiting.
If you remove the right of the players to create and make decisions for 2 years, you cant turn it back on like a tap.

Read the training reports from 2003.

Pagan wanted a predictable game plan based on repetition and efficiency.
Any time a player did anything other than kick the ball long and direct, he pulled them up and told them to do it again.
No creativity, no thinking for yourself, no making your own decisions.

Well, today we are seeing the fruits of that.

You dont recruit non thinking footballers, you create them.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:52 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 21660
Location: North of the border
Blue Vain wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Our decision making is third world standard, a reflection of our record of recruiting non thinking footballers.


You're half right.

Our decision making is atrocious but it's got nothing to do with recruiting.
If you remove the right of the players to create and make decisions for 2 years, you cant turn it back on like a tap.

Read the training reports from 2003.

Pagan wanted a predictable game plan based on repetition and efficiency.
Any time a player did anything other than kick the ball long and direct, he pulled them up and told them to do it again.
No creativity, no thinking for yourself, no making your own decisions.

Well, today we are seeing the fruits of that.

You dont recruit non thinking footballers, you create them.


BV do you think they can be turned into thinking footballers again

And how long do you think it would take

Or has he totally ruined the careers of 44 footballers

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:02 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I normally stick to the self promise of not posting within 24 hours of a loss like that. But our complete inaction over the list for the past 2 years - even outside of anything game day - has come home to roost.

Many posters see positives in the VFL results. I see nothing but pain and shallowness. Which other Club rejoices in having a bunch of solid tryers too good at VFL level and not good enough for AFL? Look through the best and Teague, Prendergast, Bannister, Sporn bla bla - add Longmuir, Chambers bla bla. We have nothing to fall back on when this should be the time for giving the next phase of Carlton a real crack at it. We have half a VFL team of guys filling a list when we should have 4 to 6 late kid picks at least trying to show something. if they dont, then fine, at least we tried.

Fair enough if we're not good enough - not fair enough if we show yet again that we arent improving.


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:42 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Jarusa wrote:
Ponkstar wrote:
I think in terms of development our team would have to be the equivalent of Hawthorn last year. A large number of raw young fellas on a steep learning curve.

Clarkson had those kids last year playing daring, flamboyant, back-yourself, aim for the stars footy. Sure, they only won five games, but they are a much more confident and switched on side this year, because they no what it takes to win and aim to do that every week. They still have pretty crap disposal and inexperience still costs them, but when a game is there to be won they will still give it a shake.

It worries me that our kids are not being shcooled in what it takes to win games of footy. They only way they will learn how to play attacking, match-winning footy is by watching their opposition!


Have to disagree there Ponky, Clarkson had Hawthorn playing the chip it around gameplan more than most sides last year. They were not direct at all.


I actually think it was a combination of the 2..... Hawthorn maintained possession tightly inside their own half, but went very direct into 50 with the next kick, and backed in their passing ability and their team-mates lead.

The chipped inside their own half and went direct when they had the ball inside their forward half

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:43 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Is that the problem of being aligned with the Bullies? They want to win games, we should be playing the real kids in their firsts.

Batson, Aisake, etc should be playing for the bullants.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:44 am 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
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Location: Bondi Beach
In the good old days, Carlton regularly gave StKilda a thumping. Our advantage was due to an abundance of talented players; more skillful, faster, bigger, taller, stronger on every line. The tables have certainly turned.

At first, I thought that the problem with us was that we were not playing to win, and we were too defensive, and are still a bit young to take on the game head on. But when I saw Dal Santo running away from Murphy in the 2nd, whilst contolling the ball, I saw Murphy busting his balls, running as fast as he could, then he began to slow down and Dal Santo maintained his high speed surge forward....that said it all to me.

We need to turn the tables in every department, and that will take time. But there's no reason why we can't be a bit more daring in the mean time. We need to take a leaf from StKildas game plan.

They hunted the ball in packs...and kept their feet!! We lacked intensity and numbers in the engine room. We had opportunities to smother, dive and tackle and we didn't...and if we did we would have at least created a contest, but sadly they didn't, and given our positioning at each contest, sadly they would have lost their feet and ended on the ground, such was the gap between where the Saints, the ball and where we were.. Where's the hunger? Where's the commitment and where's the hungry pack of midfielders?

Right from the start I thought it was a mistake to leave out our only clear advantage over the saints in the ruck, by leaving out French; the only genuine ruckman between the two teams. And I said that time and time again and again throughout the match. Bad decision, as they matched us and beat us in that position, and got the ball running their way. We have kids at the bottom of packs and the least we could do is give them better opportunity to compete.

I don't believe Saddington is confident enough in his own ability ATM to keep his spot in the backline. McGrath lacks a right foot and right hand, and is not playing with confidence.....I don't need to say any more as the list goes on. If we can't match our competitors key forwards in Reiwoldt, Kossie, Brown, Richo...then we better start thinking about who we will develop to match these guys. Saddington, Thornton, Whitnall and Livo aren't, so is Kennedy good enough? Setanta? McLaren isn't fast enough. We have to find/develop someone, because that problem is not going away!

What I did enjoy was the odd goal we scored and the never say die attitude from Fev and Lance. It gave me something to cheer.

What good id the flood if it meant to contain the opposition? Maybe the flood keeps the game within our grasp (not), maybe it is getting the kids fitter (maybe, but that's what pre season is for), maybe it gives us a better chance at winning the ball (not).

I need to be entertained by a few more goals at the very least, and if that means a few thrashings so be it. Our kids need to see reward for effort and this game plan does not allow that. 14 scoring chances in 100 minutes is never going to help, and if the flood is the culprit, then it'd not the answer. Flooding does play a part in our game, as it does for other teams, but not the whole part.

I'm with you Ponkstar....take a risk...let's at least learn to get the ball forward and score more goals, and lets start throwing the little weight we have into our opponents, and show some spirit.

I still can't bring myself to b;ame it all on Pagan, but it's time for some entertainment and he's the only bloke who can allow that. It's time for Walker and Murphy in the middle, with Bentick and Stevo.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:46 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Bannister lacks intensity, and Scotland zero accountability.... and McGrath is just a plodder who will eventually be phased out by more daring players.

I'd say all 3 are cactus within 2 seasons.... and Bannister by the end of this one

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:05 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Apart from Fev there is just a lack of fight and spirit..no one having a red hot go or caring and that stems from the coach..the players lack passion to play for him and there is only one remedy..he has to go.
Those sort of losses hurt the club on and off the field....members want spirit and passion as a return on their money and they are not getting it and you cant expect people to join the club based on that type of performance...

Pagan and crew have to go... the Herald Sun are comparing us to Fitzroy which sent a chill through my bones...

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:10 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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Elwood Blues1 wrote:
Apart from Fev there is just a lack of fight and spirit..no one having a red hot go or caring and that stems from the coach..the players lack passion to play for him and there is only one remedy..he has to go.
Those sort of losses hurt the club on and off the field....members want spirit and passion as a return on their money and they are not getting it and you cant expect people to join the club based on that type of performance...

Pagan and crew have to go... the Herald Sun are comparing us to Fitzroy which sent a chill through my bones...


yeah and sacking coaches and appointing caretakers and the new coach to save them was a great help for fitzroy wasnt it.....great @#$%&! idea. :roll: :shock: :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:35 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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playing the kids is probably the best thing we could do. But i'm not sure about it with the way we are playing.

If we are just gonna bomb long and 'Hope for the best' then kids like Kennedy are never gonna get a kick and they're confidence will be shattered and before you know it, so too will be their careers.
I'd prefer to see Kennedy head back to the VFL where he can blossom under Mitchell. Kennedy leads in the VFL. Most of the time yesterday, he was waiting for a 'Hail Mary' play to come his way!

Kids like that will have their careers destroyed under the current game plan!

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:11 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am
Posts: 4827
bnz wrote:
Elwood Blues1 wrote:
Apart from Fev there is just a lack of fight and spirit..no one having a red hot go or caring and that stems from the coach..the players lack passion to play for him and there is only one remedy..he has to go.
Those sort of losses hurt the club on and off the field....members want spirit and passion as a return on their money and they are not getting it and you cant expect people to join the club based on that type of performance...

Pagan and crew have to go... the Herald Sun are comparing us to Fitzroy which sent a chill through my bones...


yeah and sacking coaches and appointing caretakers and the new coach to save them was a great help for fitzroy wasnt it.....great F@%&#! idea. :roll: :shock: :roll:


Get your facts straight..Fitzroy sold their good players and had nothing left to coach.....

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:12 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:50 pm
Posts: 2123
The Tyrant wrote:
Bannister lacks intensity, and Scotland zero accountability.... and McGrath is just a plodder who will eventually be phased out by more daring players.

I'd say all 3 are cactus within 2 seasons.... and Bannister by the end of this one


You're probably right about Bannister and McGrath but I actually reckon that Scotland has been one of our better players this season...

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:14 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Scotland is unaccountable and racks up possesions a la camporeale by sweeping half back....commonly turns the ball over and wont chase.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:27 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am
Posts: 4827
bnz wrote:
Scotland is unaccountable and racks up possesions a la camporeale by sweeping half back....commonly turns the ball over and wont chase.


We agree on something...Scotland is a B grader only....you cant expect him, Carrazzo, Bentick, Houlihan etc to take on Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo and Harvey.....they are out of their depth.....unless we get equivalent A graders to add to Stevens and Murphy then we cant compete....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:29 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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bnz wrote:
Scotland is unaccountable and racks up possesions a la camporeale by sweeping half back....commonly turns the ball over and wont chase.


Scotland is as counterproductive as Kouta

the sooner Scotland goes the better

I would hang onto him next year (unless another club wants to trade for him!), but I wouldn't play him in the seniors unless TOTALLY decimated by injury

Scotland is one of my most disliked players on the list.... totally indicative of a team good in one direction but shocking in the other..... and gets too many stats to get dropped.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:40 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Our decision making is third world standard, a reflection of our record of recruiting non thinking footballers.


You're half right.

Our decision making is atrocious but it's got nothing to do with recruiting.
If you remove the right of the players to create and make decisions for 2 years, you cant turn it back on like a tap.

Read the training reports from 2003.

Pagan wanted a predictable game plan based on repetition and efficiency.
Any time a player did anything other than kick the ball long and direct, he pulled them up and told them to do it again.
No creativity, no thinking for yourself, no making your own decisions.

Well, today we are seeing the fruits of that.

You dont recruit non thinking footballers, you create them.


BV do you think they can be turned into thinking footballers again

And how long do you think it would take

Or has he totally ruined the careers of 44 footballers



Yes, but we need that hypnotist from telly...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:54 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:44 pm
Posts: 99
Pickle wrote:
I bet DP watched Geelong last week and maybe Richmond yesterday and thought "gee maybe if we chip around and take 117 uncontested marks in 3 quarters and 2 contested we might just win this game" I mean did he really think we have the quality of disposal to support the type of game we played today!!! That's the thing about DP, he's been here for 3-4 years and he still has no feel for what our players are capable of!!

As for the players........the fact that Kouta is still captain of this club is such a measure of the mire we are in.


The fact that he is still playing is an indictment on the club. Best and Fairest you say last year! I couldn't give a rats, the most unaccountable footballer on our list and has been for at least 5 years. Great example he sets!!


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:24 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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dannyboy wrote:
Is that the problem of being aligned with the Bullies? They want to win games, we should be playing the real kids in their firsts.

Batson, Aisake, etc should be playing for the bullants.

Batson, Aisake, etc., should be playing/learning/maturing/developing/bonding together AS ONE in the Carlton VFL team.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:41 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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budzy wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
Is that the problem of being aligned with the Bullies? They want to win games, we should be playing the real kids in their firsts.

Batson, Aisake, etc should be playing for the bullants.

Batson, Aisake, etc., should be playing/learning/maturing/developing/bonding together AS ONE in the Carlton VFL team.

Why do the Eagles or the Crows not complaiun about this problem when they have players playing across four clubs????

Its because we have no planning ....or basic development

Nothing to do with a stand alone VFL team...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:56 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Synbad wrote:
budzy wrote:
dannyboy wrote:
Is that the problem of being aligned with the Bullies? They want to win games, we should be playing the real kids in their firsts.

Batson, Aisake, etc should be playing for the bullants.

Batson, Aisake, etc., should be playing/learning/maturing/developing/bonding together AS ONE in the Carlton VFL team.

Why do the Eagles or the Crows not complaiun about this problem when they have players playing across four clubs????

Its because we have no planning ....or basic development

Nothing to do with a stand alone VFL team...

who says they don't complain?
...at least their players are playing senior WAFL & SANFL :roll:

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